• Zoom anyone?

    From August Abolins@2:221/1.58 to All on Fri Apr 10 10:45:00 2020
    Hello!


    Anyone here have experience with Zoom?

    I've been invited to participate in a session. I've read the basic requirements and process. But I need to know if even the web/client
    option requires a download. The docs seem to have conflicting
    information. The Zoom page says:

    "The Zoom web client allows joining a Zoom meeting or webinar *without* downloading any plugins or software."

    But then further in it says:

    "You do not have to have a Zoom account to attend a Zoom meeting
    or interview. You will be prompted to "download" the software, once you
    have clicked on the link that you have been provided."

    So, which is it? Download or no download? I would like to know in
    advance because my data plan is capped and I don't want to download any client software. The data stream will probably consume plenty of data
    just the same.

    Which brings me to the next question. How much data would a typical connection consume in one minute?




    ../|ug

    --- OpenXP 5.0.43
    * Origin: /|ug's Point, Ont. CANADA (2:221/1.58)
  • From Wilfred van Velzen@2:280/464 to August Abolins on Fri Apr 10 17:51:58 2020
    Hi August,

    On 2020-04-10 10:45:00, you wrote to All:

    Anyone here have experience with Zoom?

    I've been invited to participate in a session. I've read the basic requirements and process. But I need to know if even the web/client option requires a download. The docs seem to have conflicting information. The Zoom page says:

    "The Zoom web client allows joining a Zoom meeting or webinar *without* downloading any plugins or software."

    But then further in it says:

    "You do not have to have a Zoom account to attend a Zoom meeting or interview. You will be prompted to "download" the software, once you have clicked on the link that you have been provided."

    So, which is it? Download or no download? I would like to know in advance because my data plan is capped and I don't want to download any client software. The data stream will probably consume plenty of data just the same.

    Which brings me to the next question. How much data would a typical connection consume in one minute?

    I have no experience with the application myself, but Zoom has had a lot of bad
    publicity lately. Basically they steal, use and sell every bit of information they can get there hands on from your applience, with or without your consent. So if you value your privacy don't use Zoom...

    Bye, Wilfred.

    --- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
    * Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)
  • From August Abolins@2:221/1.58 to Wilfred van Velzen on Fri Apr 10 13:18:00 2020
    Hello Wilfred!

    ** 10.04.20 - 17:51, Wilfred van Velzen wrote to August Abolins:

    I have no experience with the application myself, but Zoom has had a lot
    of bad publicity lately. Basically they steal, use and sell every bit of
    information they can get there hands on from your applience, with or
    without your consent. So if you value your privacy don't use Zoom...

    The Zoom docs/manual does not mention anything about security/privacy. I missed that the first time. But now that you mention it, the privacy
    aspect is completely missing.

    It does boast "private" sessions.. but that is not the same as encrypted
    or truly private.

    Zoom seems to cater to the "if it's free, it can't hurt (I have nothing to hide), and it's fun!" mentality (aka, the mezmerized uneducated minions).

    In return for "free", they probably take the position to collect the meta data or include a bot on your pc to monitor your use.

    OTOH, https://jitsi.org/ promises privacy. It might the better choice if anyone cares about privacy.


    ../|ug

    --- OpenXP 5.0.43
    * Origin: /|ug's Point, Ont. CANADA (2:221/1.58)
  • From August Abolins@2:221/1.58 to Wilfred van Velzen on Fri Apr 10 14:01:00 2020
    Hello Wilfred!

    ** 10.04.20 - 17:51, Wilfred van Velzen wrote to August Abolins:

    I have no experience with the application myself, but Zoom has had a lot
    of bad publicity lately. Basically they steal, use and sell every bit of
    information they can get there hands on from your applience, with or
    without your consent. So if you value your privacy don't use Zoom...

    I found a report of that matter here:

    https://protonmail.com/blog/zoom-privacy-issues/

    It highlights the following paragraph in the Privacy Policy:

    "In its privacy policy, under the entry "Does Zoom sell Personal Data?" the policy says, "Depends what you mean by `sell.'" To summarize Zoom's policy, they say they don't sell personal data for money to third parties, but it does share personal data with third parties for those companies' "business purposes." In its privacy policy, it gives the example that it
    may pass your personal information to Google."

    But who reads the Privacy Policy, to see that?

    So they don't "sell", but they give it away. Yeah, sure I'll believe that
    if I was born yesterday. They don't do that without some form of monetary advantage. Otherwise, what's the point? Free tickets to concerts? Free Amazon Prime accounts? Everything in business has a "value" and it must
    be given a $ value. That's essentially a "sell".


    "An article in Vice pointed out that the Zoom iOS app shared a
    substantial amount of user data with Facebook, even if the user does not
    have a Facebook account. However, two days after this story was published, Zoom removed the code that sent data to Facebook."

    THAT is incredibly unethical in the first place. So, they only stopped it when they were outted.

    Pathetic.

    The whole Protonmail article is a big revelation on Zoom and their
    practices. It even has tips for using it (if you must) better.

    Happy Zooming - if you dare.




    ../|ug

    --- OpenXP 5.0.43
    * Origin: /|ug's Point, Ont. CANADA (2:221/1.58)
  • From Wilfred van Velzen@2:280/464 to August Abolins on Fri Apr 10 20:52:45 2020
    Hi August,

    On 2020-04-10 13:18:00, you wrote to me:

    It does boast "private" sessions.. but that is not the same as
    encrypted or truly private.

    Someone said you should regard the "private" video conferences you have: as a loud conversation in a public place. If you don't mind that, you could use Zoom.

    Zoom seems to cater to the "if it's free, it can't hurt (I have
    nothing to hide), and it's fun!" mentality (aka, the mezmerized
    uneducated minions).

    Maybe the stupid should be protected against the devious?

    OTOH, https://jitsi.org/ promises privacy. It might the better
    choice if anyone cares about privacy.

    Jitsi was sort of recommended by a Dutch privacy organisation, as being the least bad choice privacy wise. Given the small amount of time they could spend on investigating the alternatives for Zoom.

    Bye, Wilfred.

    --- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
    * Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)
  • From Thierry Olmedo@4:900/106 to August Abolins on Sat Apr 11 02:02:17 2020
    Hello August!

    10 Apr 20 10:45, you wrote to all:

    So, which is it? Download or no download? I would like to know in advance because my data plan is capped and I don't want to download
    any client software. The data stream will probably consume plenty of data just the same.

    I don't have internet in this machine , but i think that zoom is not very safe lately , search in google "Thousands of Zoom video calls left exposed on open web" , few days ago

    regards



    Thierry


    --- FMail/386 1.60.GPL
    * Origin: 386_40mhz-8MB_ram/DOS6.22/IBM_TCP-IP/Binkd-DOS/Fmail1.6/ (4:900/106)
  • From Richard Menedetter@2:310/31 to Dennisk on Mon May 11 12:27:14 2020
    Hi Dennisk!

    04 May 2020 11:08, from Dennisk -> Richard Menedetter:

    To be honest, I'm just annoyed that things got to a state where I struggled with a Pentium-M 1.66 GHz with 1G of ram to view basic
    webpages.

    I recently bought a Pinebook Pro.
    A very low end laptop based on th pine SoC.
    (Arm 2 big cores + 4 little cores with 4 GB RAM)

    I like it very much, as it has enough horsepower for 99% of the things I do, and it has a really long battery life.
    I usually have 2-3 terminal windows open, and 2-3 Firefox Windows.
    But one of them contains more than 100 tabs. (I now I am insane)

    It performs nicely.

    There is good reason to put applications over the internet, but it shouldn't have been over "HTTP", which is to transfer HyperText.
    Perhaps something like "ATP", Application Transfer Protocol should
    have been developed (which could use HTTP as a subset), allowing the functionality available in freephototool, but also allowing HTTP to be implemented in a more pure, simpler fashion.

    I am using Golded ony my worklaptop over shellinabox over a HTTPS connection. Works really nicely, and I can also use it when I am logged into the company VPN.

    CU, Ricsi

    ... Recession: your neighbour looses his job; depression: you do.
    --- GoldED+/LNX
    * Origin: High message: 943432 - Message you last read: 59 (2:310/31)
  • From Richard Menedetter@2:310/31 to August Abolins on Mon May 11 12:35:18 2020
    Hi August!

    09 May 2020 23:13, from August Abolins -> Richard Menedetter:

    It is prudent to not allow web apps control hardware on your pc:
    https://www.theregister.co.uk/2020/04/07/apple_safari_camera_hack/

    I have again learned a new word (prudent roughly equal to intelligent I guess).

    Anyhow.
    Here the camera is secured by a slider, that you need to slide manually over, otherwise you get a black video.
    Additionally you have a hardware LED that is lit when the camera is active.

    If you want to have a video conference you need to allow video access.
    And I do not see the difference weather I allow access to the browser or a specialzed app like teams or zoom.

    When I go with the browser to my https secured webpoage with Jitsi that I set up, and it asks me to allow video access, I feel quit safe.

    CU, Ricsi

    ... I'd probably be famous now if I wasn't such a good waitress.
    --- GoldED+/LNX
    * Origin: Given enough time, even the unlikely happens. (2:310/31)
  • From Dennisk@1:153/135 to Richard Menedetter on Mon May 11 05:22:00 2020
    I recently bought a Pinebook Pro.
    A very low end laptop based on th pine SoC.
    (Arm 2 big cores + 4 little cores with 4 GB RAM)

    I like it very much, as it has enough horsepower for 99% of the
    things I do, and it has a really long battery life.
    I usually have 2-3 terminal windows open, and 2-3 Firefox Windows.
    But one of them contains more than 100 tabs. (I now I am insane)
    It performs nicely.

    There is good reason to put applications over the internet, but
    it De> shouldn't have been over "HTTP", which is to transfer
    HyperText. De> Perhaps something like "ATP", Application Transfer
    Protocol should De> have been developed (which could use HTTP as a
    subset), allowing the De> functionality available in freephototool,
    but also allowing HTTP to be De> implemented in a more pure, simpler fashion.
    I am using Golded ony my worklaptop over shellinabox over a HTTPS connection. Works really nicely, and I can also use it when I am
    logged into the company VPN.

    CU, Ricsi

    ... Recession: your neighbour looses his job; depression: you do. --- GoldED+/LNX
    * Origin: High message: 943432 - Message you last read: 59 (2:310/31)
    .
    Offline editor and emacs for me. As long as I have an option to use a 'lightweight' technology I'm good. It's having no choice but to use
    bloated crap that bothers me.

    --- PCBoard (R) v15.3/100
    * Origin: dangerbaybbs.dyndns.org:1337 (1:153/135)
  • From August Abolins@2:221/360 to Richard Menedetter on Mon May 11 18:48:08 2020
    On 11/05/2020 6:35 a.m., Richard Menedetter : August Abolins wrote:

    I have again learned a new word (prudent roughly equal to intelligent I guess).

    :)

    Here the camera is secured by a slider, that you need to slide manually over,
    otherwise you get a black video. Additionally you have a hardware LED that is
    lit when the camera is active.

    A few years ago, I read that there was a way to disable the LED light yet enable
    the camera. Maybe it only pertains to Windows, dunno. But it was grounded on requiring to have allowed a rogue program to get settled on your machine.


    If you want to have a video conference you need to allow video access. And I
    do not see the difference weather I allow access to the browser or a specialzed app like teams or zoom.

    As long as we perceive that the video app is under our control then there's no problem, I guess. ;) But.. when reports surface months/years later that program X had a bug that allowed remote control of the camera then that could be
    mildly upsetting.


    When I go with the browser to my https secured webpoage with Jitsi that I set
    up, and it asks me to allow video access, I feel quit safe.

    At least Jitsi is open source.. and anyone can take a look inside to look for clues if anything nefarious is going on.

    --- TB(Stealth)/Win7
    * Origin: nntp://rbb.fidonet.fi - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/360.0)
  • From Rob Swindell@1:103/705 to Richard Menedetter on Mon May 11 11:21:42 2020
    Re: Zoom anyone?
    By: Richard Menedetter to August Abolins on Mon May 11 2020 12:35 pm

    Hi August!

    09 May 2020 23:13, from August Abolins -> Richard Menedetter:

    It is prudent to not allow web apps control hardware on your pc:
    https://www.theregister.co.uk/2020/04/07/apple_safari_camera_hack/

    I have again learned a new word (prudent roughly equal to intelligent I guess).

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMYPvd86R2I

    digital man

    Synchronet "Real Fact" #6:
    Synchronet version 3 for Linux and FreeBSD development began in 2001.
    Norco, CA WX: 68.9F, 64.0% humidity, 5 mph E wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs
    --- SBBSecho 3.11-Linux
    * Origin: Vertrauen - [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net (1:103/705)
  • From Richard Menedetter@2:310/31 to August Abolins on Wed May 13 16:52:34 2020
    Hi August!

    11 May 2020 18:48, from August Abolins -> Richard Menedetter:

    Here the camera is secured by a slider, that you need to slide
    manually over, otherwise you get a black video. Additionally you
    have a hardware LED that is lit when the camera is active.
    A few years ago, I read that there was a way to disable the LED light
    yet enable the camera.

    This depends on how the hardware is realized.
    Current HW should be fine. (and you also have the mechanical slider)

    BTW. it is the same with the microphone, only that you do not even have a LED or slider :)

    CU, Ricsi

    ... Times are so hard in NYC, that the Mafia has even laid off four judges.
    --- GoldED+/LNX
    * Origin: Oxymoron: Soviet Union (2:310/31)
  • From August Abolins@2:221/1.58 to Richard Menedetter on Wed May 13 16:19:00 2020
    Hello Richard!

    ** On Wednesday 13.05.20 - 16:52, Richard Menedetter wrote to August Abolins:

    A few years ago, I read that there was a way to disable the LED light
    yet enable the camera.

    This depends on how the hardware is realized.
    Current HW should be fine. (and you also have the mechanical slider)

    Have you seen the documentary of Snowden, "Citizenfour"? (At least I
    *think* that's the one) There is a scene where he specifically explains
    why the mics and cameras on pcs can't be trusted. This is coming from a
    guy who would not purposely allow his computer to get hacked and therefore
    is probably safe from hacking. Despite that, he disassembles that
    hardware - and only uses external devices when required.


    BTW. it is the same with the microphone, only that you do not even have a LED or slider :)

    Ah.. YES! The darn microphone.

    Reminds me of the debacle of Amazon's Alexa devices going rogue and
    recording everything even without the "wake word".

    Seems to me that is something Amazon could have purposely left unresolved
    for the sake of calling it a field experiment. Then, attempt to fix it
    only when someone discovers the problem and reports it.


    ../|ug

    --- OpenXP 5.0.43
    * Origin: (2:221/1.58)
  • From Borax Man@1:154/700 to Daniel on Fri May 1 22:10:00 2020
    Daniel wrote to August Abolins <=-

    August Abolins wrote to Wilfred van Velzen <=-

    "An article in Vice pointed out that the Zoom iOS app shared a substantial amount of user data with Facebook, even if the user does
    not have a Facebook account. However, two days after this story was published, Zoom removed the code that sent data to Facebook."

    I highly doubt they stopped sending data. It must be a huge financial reward for doing so. Today's internet is all about selling analytics
    data. Glad I never jumped into that category because I don't think I
    could live with myself.

    THAT is incredibly unethical in the first place. So, they only stopped
    it when they were outted.

    I'm sure they're still sending the data, but in a more obfuscated
    manner. Instead of sending directly to Facebook, they fetch the data to their own servers and batch it from there.

    Pathetic.

    Quite, but this is today's internet. And that's why I still use BBS's
    now more than ever.

    The whole Protonmail article is a big revelation on Zoom and their practices. It even has tips for using it (if you must) better.

    I recall reading somewhere that protonmail's encryption is so advanced that it's the only service the NSA hasn't been able to decrypt. I'm too lazy to fact check that bit though, so it could be overinflated.

    Happy Zooming - if you dare.

    I really don't think any of those services keep the data private. I'm
    sure they're all guilty.

    ... Visit me at: gopher://gcpp.world
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.49
    * Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (1:340/7)

    Has anyone used Jitsi? It's a free software alternative to Zoom. Seems a more secure one which is better for those with privacy concerns.

    My daughters school was using Zoom, but changed to another platform due to privacy and security concerns.


    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    * Origin: thePharcyde_ telnet://bbs.pharcyde.org (Wisconsin) (1:154/700)
  • From Richard Menedetter@2:310/31 to Borax Man on Fri May 1 17:58:16 2020
    Hi Borax!

    01 May 2020 22:10, from Borax Man -> Daniel:

    Has anyone used Jitsi?

    yes

    It's a free software alternative to Zoom. Seems a more secure one
    which is better for those with privacy concerns.

    It works great, and I love it.

    CU, Ricsi

    ... If you don't go to other men's funerals, they won't go to yours.
    --- GoldED+/LNX
    * Origin: Squirrel: Just a tree rat with a good PR agent. (2:310/31)
  • From Alan Ianson@1:153/757 to Borax Man on Fri May 1 12:11:24 2020
    Hello Borax,

    My daughters school was using Zoom, but changed to another platform
    due to privacy and security concerns.

    Here in British Columbia where I live Zoom was purchased somehow, a license probably before the pandemic. It would have been very useful since the schools here were closed and still are but zoom hasn't been used for the most part because of those concerns.

    Ttyl :-),
    Al

    --- GoldED+/LNX
    * Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (1:153/757)
  • From Borax Man@1:154/700 to Richard Menedetter on Fri May 1 22:29:00 2020
    Richard Menedetter wrote to Borax Man <=-

    Hi Borax!

    01 May 2020 22:10, from Borax Man -> Daniel:

    Has anyone used Jitsi?

    yes

    It's a free software alternative to Zoom. Seems a more secure one
    which is better for those with privacy concerns.

    It works great, and I love it.

    CU, Ricsi

    ... If you don't go to other men's funerals, they won't go to yours.
    --- GoldED+/LNX
    * Origin: Squirrel: Just a tree rat with a good PR agent. (2:310/31)

    I'm trying to get others onto it, but it is hard when they struggle
    with software as it is, and consider zoom the "default". Mindshare seems
    to matter most to many.


    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/MS-DOS v0.29
    * Origin: thePharcyde_ telnet://bbs.pharcyde.org (Wisconsin) (1:154/700)
  • From Richard Menedetter@2:310/31 to Borax Man on Sat May 2 08:37:26 2020
    Hi Borax!

    01 May 2020 22:29, from Borax Man -> Richard Menedetter:

    I'm trying to get others onto it, but it is hard when they struggle
    with software as it is, and consider zoom the "default".

    You can also use the WebRTC Browser version without any additional software. Security wise Jitsi makes much more sense.

    CU, Ricsi

    ... The reason why I work so hard is because I'm too nervous to steal.
    --- GoldED+/LNX
    * Origin: Out of my mind. Back in five minutes. (2:310/31)
  • From Borax Man@1:154/700 to Richard Menedetter on Sat May 2 19:31:00 2020
    Richard Menedetter wrote to Borax Man <=-

    Hi Borax!

    01 May 2020 22:29, from Borax Man -> Richard Menedetter:

    I'm trying to get others onto it, but it is hard when they struggle
    with software as it is, and consider zoom the "default".

    You can also use the WebRTC Browser version without any additional software. Security wise Jitsi makes much more sense.

    CU, Ricsi

    ... The reason why I work so hard is because I'm too nervous to steal.
    --- GoldED+/LNX
    * Origin: Out of my mind. Back in five minutes. (2:310/31)

    WebRTC is an API? Seems there is browser support.

    Having browsers as all-purpose software platforms is really an abuse of the browser. Curses to the man who man who thought you could use the web to create apps!

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    * Origin: thePharcyde_ telnet://bbs.pharcyde.org (Wisconsin) (1:154/700)
  • From Richard Menedetter@2:310/31 to Borax Man on Sat May 2 12:58:10 2020
    Hi Borax!

    02 May 2020 19:31, from Borax Man -> Richard Menedetter:

    You can also use the WebRTC Browser version without any
    additional software. Security wise Jitsi makes much more sense.
    WebRTC is an API? Seems there is browser support.

    yes
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WebRTC

    Having browsers as all-purpose software platforms is really an abuse
    of the browser.

    I completely disagree.
    It is not ABuse but intelligent USE!

    Curses to the man who man who thought you could use
    the web to create apps!

    Why curse that genius?

    CU, Ricsi

    ... He was so narrow-minded he could see through a keyhole with both eyes!
    --- GoldED+/LNX
    * Origin: An ass thinks one thing, his rider another. (2:310/31)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12 to Borax Man on Sat May 2 08:56:06 2020
    Re: Re: Zoom anyone?
    By: Borax Man to Richard Menedetter on Fri May 01 2020 22:29:00


    Richard Menedetter wrote to Borax Man <=-

    Hi Borax!

    please sign your messages with your real name if your software cannot put it in the From line... thank you...

    fidonet INTERNET echo moderator


    )\/(ark
    --- SBBSecho 3.11-Linux
    * Origin: SouthEast Star Mail HUB - SESTAR (1:3634/12)
  • From Borax Man@1:154/700 to Richard Menedetter on Sat May 2 12:34:00 2020
    Richard Menedetter wrote to Borax Man <=-

    Hi Borax!

    02 May 2020 19:31, from Borax Man -> Richard Menedetter:

    You can also use the WebRTC Browser version without any
    additional software. Security wise Jitsi makes much more sense.
    WebRTC is an API? Seems there is browser support.

    yes
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WebRTC

    Having browsers as all-purpose software platforms is really an abuse
    of the browser.

    I completely disagree.
    It is not ABuse but intelligent USE!

    They were never designed to be application platforms. That is why browsers take gigabytes of ram and need modern computers. All that functionality has to be put into every browser, even if someone just wants to render plain HTML.

    Curses to the man who man who thought you could use
    the web to create apps!

    Why curse that genius?

    Because it solved the wrong problem. The problem was cross platform graphical apps. Browsers were abused to provide this, then we had bloat as all this added functionality had to be added in. Thankfully with mobiles, we are seeing proper dedicated
    "apps", specific front ends with clear APIs, which is how it should have been in the first place. That is, you have a well documented API, and anyone can write any program using it.

    Why reinvent a graphical interface, when the OS already has one?
    CU, Ricsi

    ... He was so narrow-minded he could see through a keyhole with both
    eyes! --- GoldED+/LNX
    * Origin: An ass thinks one thing, his rider another. (2:310/31)

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/MS-DOS v0.29
    * Origin: thePharcyde_ telnet://bbs.pharcyde.org (Wisconsin) (1:154/700)
  • From Borax Man@1:154/700 to mark lewis on Sat May 2 21:44:53 2020
    Re: Re: Zoom anyone?
    By: mark lewis to Borax Man on Sat May 02 2020 08:56 am

    Richard Menedetter wrote to Borax Man <=-

    Hi Borax!

    please sign your messages with your real name if your software cannot put it in the From line... thank you...

    fidonet INTERNET echo moderator

    I didn't realise that was a requirement, that one not use a pseudonym. It is done automatically by the BBS. I'll see if I can change that.

    Dennis Katsonis
    --- SBBSecho 3.11-Linux
    * Origin: thePharcyde_ telnet://bbs.pharcyde.org (Wisconsin) (1:154/700)
  • From August Abolins@2:221/1.58 to Richard Menedetter on Sat May 9 23:13:00 2020
    Hello Richard!

    ** On Sunday 03.05.20 - 08:52, Richard Menedetter wrote to Borax Man:

    I go to my website and can do videoconferences.
    On Linux, Windows, whatever.
    No need to install anything. GREAT!
    [snip]

    And simply pointing your browser at a URL to start your videoconference
    is a GREAT way, when compared to having to install a dedicated app for something that you might only use occasionally.

    It is prudent to not allow web apps control hardware on your pc:

    https://www.theregister.co.uk/2020/04/07/apple_safari_camera_hack/

    " The increasing capability of applications that run in the browser means that web browsers have extensive permissions which are then guarded by the browser, not the operating system. If you have given Safari permission to access the camera in order to use the likes of Skype or Zoom, then it is Safari that controls whether or not a malicious site gets those same permissions. "

    " A bit of work with browser history and iFrames, and "we now have a sandboxed iframe with the blob://skype.com href and arbitrary JavaScript content. A simple window.open() popup is the final step to glory," said Pickren - glory being in this case a payout for him, and a reminder to the rest of us that giving the web browser super powers is not without risk. "


    ../|ug

    --- OpenXP 5.0.43
    * Origin: (2:221/1.58)
  • From Richard Menedetter@2:310/31 to Borax Man on Sun May 3 08:52:38 2020
    Hi Borax!

    02 May 2020 12:34, from Borax Man -> Richard Menedetter:

    I completely disagree.
    It is not ABuse but intelligent USE!
    They were never designed to be application platforms.

    That is not correct.
    They were not designed for it in the beginning.
    They ARE designed for it for a long time.

    For example ChromeOS runs all its apps in the browser. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrome_OS

    That is why browsers take gigabytes of ram and need modern computers.

    Yes ... it cannot compete with an implementation on hand optimized assembly. But it is a great solution for me.

    I go to my website and can do videoconferences.
    On Linux, Windows, whatever.
    No need to install anything. GREAT!

    All that functionality has to be put into every browser, even if
    someone just wants to render plain HTML.

    Yes.
    But as the same tech is used by HTML5 Websites, you NEED to include it anyways, otherwise you will not be able to view websites made in the last few years.

    See for example the visual 6502 simulator ... running only in your browser: http://www.visual6502.org/JSSim/index.html

    Curses to the man who man who thought you could use
    the web to create apps!
    Why curse that genius?
    Because it solved the wrong problem.

    It is a great solution for me.

    The problem was cross platform graphical apps.
    Browsers were abused to provide this

    No ... the already existing functionality for HTML5 and JS was USED for that. And it is a GREAT solution for multi platform apps.
    So good that Google built a line of Chromebooks around it.
    (Which I am NOT fond of, as you ONLY have browser apps, but it is a good solution for some.)

    Hell ... even of the apps I use over 90% is Firefox.
    And some terminal windows to my Linux server.
    But even those migrate to the browser with Shell in a box.
    At work outbound SSH is disallowed.
    But I can use web ... so I go to my shell in a box instance and I am logged in to my server.

    That is, you have a well documented API, and anyone can write
    any program using it.

    The browser APIs ARE well documented. (better than anything else).
    For example see my link to WebRTC.

    And many, many people ARE writing browser based programs like Jitsi.
    Thanks god!! (BTW. there is also an Android and IOS version of Jitsi, and maybe even a Windows version.)

    Why reinvent a graphical interface, when the OS already has one?

    It is not reinvented.
    The browser also had one for a long time.
    So the correct question is, why not use the GUI that best fits your needs, of the 2 existing interfaces.

    And simply pointing your browser at a URL to start your videoconference is a GREAT way, when compared to having to install a dedicated app for something that you might only use occasionally.

    For me it is a great solution!

    CU, Ricsi

    ... The best thing about the good old days is that they're gone.
    --- GoldED+/LNX
    * Origin: The paper is always strongest at the perforations. (2:310/31)
  • From Borax Man@1:154/700 to Richard Menedetter on Sun May 3 07:20:08 2020
    Re: Zoom anyone?
    By: Richard Menedetter to Borax Man on Sun May 03 2020 08:52 am

    That is not correct.
    They were not designed for it in the beginning.
    They ARE designed for it for a long time.

    Yes, for a long time this mistake has festered. The issue is that we are reimplementing gui elements over HTTP, and this has meant having to bolt on functionality. I used to use quite a few web based apps at work, now none. What used to be a web based apps is now dedicated client programs using a crossplatform toolkit like QT.

    We will continue to see complex websites, such as YouTube, Jitsi, there will always be rich web portals, but we will see fewer applications unrelated to a website using browsers.

    For example ChromeOS runs all its apps in the browser. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrome_OS

    Is it a proper OS, or an appliance?

    Yes ... it cannot compete with an implementation on hand optimized assembly. But it is a great solution for me.

    I go to my website and can do videoconferences.
    On Linux, Windows, whatever.
    No need to install anything. GREAT!

    Those functions will remain. What I was referring to are things like web based Material Resource Management programs, Quality Management programs and other enterprise applications. YouTube will remain web based (I do use a client program for it from time tie time), but only because it is a 'natural' browser target.
    Yes.
    But as the same tech is used by HTML5 Websites, you NEED to include it anyways, otherwise you will not be able to view websites made in the last few years.

    HTML5 is a step forward. Standardisation and open codecs. Much better than propreietary plugins.

    Dennis Katsonis
    --- SBBSecho 3.11-Linux
    * Origin: thePharcyde_ telnet://bbs.pharcyde.org (Wisconsin) (1:154/700)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12 to Borax Man on Sun May 3 08:38:21 2020
    Re: Re: Zoom anyone?
    By: Borax Man to mark lewis on Sat May 02 2020 21:44:53


    please sign your messages with your real name if your software
    cannot put it in the From line... thank you...

    fidonet INTERNET echo moderator

    I didn't realise that was a requirement, that one not use a
    pseudonym.

    yeah, most fidonet echos require/desire/request real names...

    It is done automatically by the BBS. I'll see if I can change that.

    generally speaking, BBSes have a sysop maintained configuration setting for each message area whether to use the alias or the real name of the poster... this doesn't really work if the user signed up and used just an alias or used an alias and a "fake name"... it is what it is, in this day and time, though... easiest to just sign the post with your real name ;)

    Dennis Katsonis

    thanks, dennis... it is nice to meet you :)


    )\/(ark
    --- SBBSecho 3.11-Linux
    * Origin: SouthEast Star Mail HUB - SESTAR (1:3634/12)
  • From Richard Menedetter@2:310/31 to Borax Man on Sun May 3 19:26:40 2020
    Hi Borax!

    03 May 2020 07:20, from Borax Man -> Richard Menedetter:

    They ARE designed for it for a long time.
    Yes, for a long time this mistake has festered.

    We agree to disagree :)

    The issue is that we are reimplementing gui elements over HTTP, and
    this has meant having to bolt on functionality. I used to use quite a
    few web based apps at work, now none. What used to be a web based apps
    is now dedicated client programs using a crossplatform toolkit like
    QT.

    I did not mean that it is the best solution for everything.
    But there are a lot of really, really good usecases.

    We will continue to see complex websites, such as YouTube, Jitsi,
    there will always be rich web portals, but we will see fewer
    applications unrelated to a website using browsers.

    I do not know.
    99% of the programs I use privately are browser and terminal.

    I used to use a specialized mailclient, now I use webmail.

    For example ChromeOS runs all its apps in the browser.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrome_OS
    Is it a proper OS, or an appliance?

    I do not use it, so I am not that familiar.
    But it seems that it is a small linux system, where linux is hidden, and the only shell is the browser.
    It is used to view webpages and to run applications.

    What I was referring to are things like web based Material Resource Management programs, Quality Management programs and other enterprise applications.

    At work we have a lot of webapps.
    Most of them are not very well made.
    But usually because they did not put in a lot of effort, or they used really bad SAP Webthingy (whatever that is called.)

    But naturally I agree that huge specialized applications can be better optimized if they are local apps.

    But something like this is still extremely powerful: https://www.freephototool.com/

    CU, Ricsi

    ... It is better to have a permanent income that to be fascinating.
    --- GoldED+/LNX
    * Origin: A friend is someone who knows me and likes me anyway. (2:310/31)
  • From Dennisk@3:633/416 to Richard Menedetter on Mon May 4 11:08:00 2020
    Richard Menedetter wrote to Borax Man <=-

    Hi Borax!

    03 May 2020 07:20, from Borax Man -> Richard Menedetter:

    They ARE designed for it for a long time.
    Yes, for a long time this mistake has festered.

    We agree to disagree :)

    I don't think we disagree that much. I was developing what was to be a web app with the backing of a development company. Much of this opinion is based on discussion with a key developer there who has worked with this technology.



    The issue is that we are reimplementing gui elements over HTTP, and
    this has meant having to bolt on functionality. I used to use quite a
    few web based apps at work, now none. What used to be a web based apps
    is now dedicated client programs using a crossplatform toolkit like
    QT.

    I did not mean that it is the best solution for everything.
    But there are a lot of really, really good usecases.

    We will continue to see complex websites, such as YouTube, Jitsi,
    there will always be rich web portals, but we will see fewer
    applications unrelated to a website using browsers.

    I do not know.
    99% of the programs I use privately are browser and terminal.

    I used to use a specialized mailclient, now I use webmail.

    For example ChromeOS runs all its apps in the browser.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrome_OS
    Is it a proper OS, or an appliance?

    I do not use it, so I am not that familiar.
    But it seems that it is a small linux system, where linux is hidden,
    and the only shell is the browser.
    It is used to view webpages and to run applications.

    What I was referring to are things like web based Material Resource Management programs, Quality Management programs and other enterprise applications.

    At work we have a lot of webapps.
    Most of them are not very well made.
    But usually because they did not put in a lot of effort, or they used really bad SAP Webthingy (whatever that is called.)

    Interesting that we would have such different experienced.

    But naturally I agree that huge specialized applications can be better optimized if they are local apps.

    But something like this is still extremely powerful: https://www.freephototool.com/

    CU, Ricsi

    ... It is better to have a permanent income that to be fascinating.
    --- GoldED+/LNX
    * Origin: A friend is someone who knows me and likes me anyway. (2:310/31)

    (I was Borax Man)

    To be honest, I'm just annoyed that things got to a state where I struggled with a Pentium-M 1.66 GHz with 1G of ram to view basic webpages. That and I remember having to provide support for web apps which required not just IE, but a specific version of IE, because people in their wisdom thought to use browser and version specific extensions. I simply can't accept a status quo where so much computing power is needed for simple tasks, it's just not justifiable. There MUST be a design error in there somewhere. I get why things are the way they are and the arguments to a degree make sense. But still, what we have now is from people deciding to push technology past its design.

    There is good reason to put applications over the internet, but it shouldn't have been over "HTTP", which is to transfer HyperText. Perhaps something like "ATP", Application Transfer Protocol should have been developed (which could use HTTP as a subset), allowing the functionality available in freephototool, but also allowing HTTP to be implemented in a more pure, simpler fashion.

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    * Origin: Mind's Eye BBS - mindseye.ddns.net - Australia (3:633/416)
  • From Dennisk@3:633/416 to mark lewis on Mon May 4 11:14:00 2020
    mark lewis wrote to Borax Man <=-

    Re: Re: Zoom anyone?
    By: Borax Man to mark lewis on Sat May 02 2020 21:44:53


    please sign your messages with your real name if your software
    cannot put it in the From line... thank you...

    fidonet INTERNET echo moderator

    I didn't realise that was a requirement, that one not use a
    pseudonym.

    yeah, most fidonet echos require/desire/request real names...

    It is done automatically by the BBS. I'll see if I can change that.

    generally speaking, BBSes have a sysop maintained configuration setting for each message area whether to use the alias or the real name of the poster... this doesn't really work if the user signed up and used just
    an alias or used an alias and a "fake name"... it is what it is, in
    this day and time, though... easiest to just sign the post with your
    real name ;)

    Dennis Katsonis

    thanks, dennis... it is nice to meet you :)


    )\/(ark
    --- SBBSecho 3.11-Linux
    * Origin: SouthEast Star Mail HUB - SESTAR (1:3634/12)

    Using MultiMail reader I can change the name, so I have a solution. The BBS I use seems to user the alias/sign in name, instead of the real name.

    I'm just used to the Internet, where I try to avoid using my real name for privacy reasons. Although I have nothing to hide, the fact that other organisations can build a profile from seemingly innocent things is worrying. Facebook I found had already built a profile of me and knew who I had contacted, even though I had no account created with them!!

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    * Origin: Mind's Eye BBS - mindseye.ddns.net - Australia (3:633/416)
  • From Daniel@1:340/7 to August Abolins on Wed Apr 22 13:06:00 2020
    August Abolins wrote to All <=-

    Hello!


    Anyone here have experience with Zoom?

    I've been invited to participate in a session. I've read the basic requirements and process. But I need to know if even the web/client option requires a download. The docs seem to have conflicting information. The Zoom page says:

    "The Zoom web client allows joining a Zoom meeting or webinar *without* downloading any plugins or software."

    But then further in it says:

    "You do not have to have a Zoom account to attend a Zoom
    meeting or interview. You will be prompted to "download" the software, once you have clicked on the link that you have been provided."

    So, which is it? Download or no download? I would like to know in advance because my data plan is capped and I don't want to download any client software. The data stream will probably consume plenty of data just the same.

    Which brings me to the next question. How much data would a typical connection consume in one minute?

    I've seen increasing use of Zoom at my agency for training classes. My colleagues' kids connect to their schools during lockdown via zoom sessions. When i was doing ground school for my instrument rating, and my CFII was out of town, he hosted the sessions on zoom.

    Otherwise, I haven't had a chance to read the MS-ISAC report on it. If I do get a chance I'll reply again.

    ... Visit me at: gopher://gcpp.world
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.49
    * Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (1:340/7)
  • From Daniel@1:340/7 to August Abolins on Wed Apr 22 13:11:00 2020
    August Abolins wrote to Wilfred van Velzen <=-

    "An article in Vice pointed out that the Zoom iOS app shared a substantial amount of user data with Facebook, even if the user does
    not have a Facebook account. However, two days after this story was published, Zoom removed the code that sent data to Facebook."

    I highly doubt they stopped sending data. It must be a huge financial reward for doing so. Today's internet is all about selling analytics data. Glad I never jumped into that category because I don't think I could live with myself.

    THAT is incredibly unethical in the first place. So, they only stopped
    it when they were outted.

    I'm sure they're still sending the data, but in a more obfuscated manner. Instead of sending directly to Facebook, they fetch the data to their own servers and batch it from there.

    Pathetic.

    Quite, but this is today's internet. And that's why I still use BBS's now more than ever.

    The whole Protonmail article is a big revelation on Zoom and their practices. It even has tips for using it (if you must) better.

    I recall reading somewhere that protonmail's encryption is so advanced that it's the only service the NSA hasn't been able to decrypt. I'm too lazy to fact check that bit though, so it could be overinflated.

    Happy Zooming - if you dare.

    I really don't think any of those services keep the data private. I'm sure they're all guilty.

    ... Visit me at: gopher://gcpp.world
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.49
    * Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (1:340/7)
  • From Richard Menedetter@2:310/31 to August Abolins on Thu May 14 08:01:06 2020
    Hi August!

    13 May 2020 16:19, from August Abolins -> Richard Menedetter:

    This depends on how the hardware is realized.
    Current HW should be fine. (and you also have the mechanical
    slider)
    Have you seen the documentary of Snowden, "Citizenfour"? (At least I *think* that's the one) There is a scene where he specifically
    explains why the mics and cameras on pcs can't be trusted. This is
    coming from a guy who would not purposely allow his computer to get hacked and therefore is probably safe from hacking. Despite that, he disassembles that hardware - and only uses external devices when required.

    That's why there is the mecanical slider there.
    You cannot hack that ... ;)

    BTW I also have a Pinebook Pro and a Pinephone.
    Both have physical switches for the camera and Microphone ;)
    BTW2 do not really use the Pinephone, just bought it out of curiosity.
    But I use the Pinebook Pro regularly! ;)

    CU, Ricsi

    ... Anger... fear... aggression. The dark side of the Force are they.
    --- GoldED+/LNX
    * Origin: Hallucinations? What hallucinations?! (2:310/31)
  • From Phillip Taylor@1:275/201.30 to August Abolins on Sun Nov 1 00:56:35 2020
    On Fri 10-Apr-2020 10:45a, August Abolins@2:221/1.58 wrote:
    Hello!


    Which brings me to the next question. How much data would a typical connection consume in one minute?

    Your asking this question because you using dialup?
    --- CNet/5
    * Origin: 1:275/201.0 (1:275/201.30)
  • From August Abolins@2:333/808.7 to Phillip Taylor on Mon Nov 2 06:33:34 2020
    Hi Phillip!

    01 Nov 20 00:56, you wrote to me:

    On Fri 10-Apr-2020 10:45a, August Abolins@2:221/1.58 wrote:

    Which brings me to the next question. How much data would a
    typical connection consume in one minute?

    Your asking this question because you using dialup?

    I am using mobile data. It is not "unlimited". Every Kb counts.


    --- GoldED+/W32-MINGW 1.1.5-b20180707
    * Origin: ----> Point Of VeleNo BBs (http://www.velenobbs.net) (2:333/808.7)
  • From Charles Pierson@2:221/6.21 to August Abolins on Tue Nov 3 05:38:42 2020
    Hello, August Abolins.
    On 11/2/20 6:33 AM you wrote:

    Hi Phillip! 01 Nov 20 00:56, you wrote to me:
    On Fri 10-Apr-2020 10:45a, August Abolins@2:221/1.58 wrote:
    Which brings me to the next question. How much data would a
    typical connection consume in one minute?
    Your asking this question because you using dialup?
    I am using mobile data. It is not "unlimited". Every Kb counts.

    It's directly tied to the packet sizes if you're strictly speaking of the transfer.

    --
    Best regards!
    Posted using Hotdoged on Android
    --- Hotdoged/2.13.5/Android
    * Origin: Houston, Tx (2:221/6.21)
  • From August Abolins@2:221/1.58 to Charles Pierson on Mon Nov 9 22:17:00 2020
    Hello Charles!

    ** On Tuesday 03.11.20 - 05:38, Charles Pierson wrote to August Abolins:

    Hi Phillip! 01 Nov 20 00:56, you wrote to me:
    On Fri 10-Apr-2020 10:45a, August Abolins@2:221/1.58 wrote:

    Which brings me to the next question. How much data
    would a typical connection consume in one minute?

    Your asking this question because you using dialup?

    I am using mobile data. It is not "unlimited". Every Kb counts.

    It's directly tied to the packet sizes if you're strictly
    speaking of the transfer.

    But.. on a typical session for about 30 minutes between two
    people, how much data would be consumed? I understand that
    the more peopel join the session, the more data download would
    be used.


    --
    ../|ug

    --- OpenXP 5.0.46
    * Origin: (2:221/1.58)