• SixXs stops

    From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to All on Fri Apr 1 19:59:24 2016
    Hello All,

    Today I got an e-mail from Jeroen Massaar, head honcjo of SixXs. here is a quote from that e-mail:

    [quote]

    With IPv6 being 20 years old now, IPv4 addresses being out, and no movement happening, we started our "Call your ISP for IPv6 action" in December 2015[6]. We are now fully stopping accepting signups and tunnel & subnet requests.
    We'll also be starting to ratelimit IPv4 speeds on the PoPs to make sure
    that you notice that the freebie that is SixXS will not stay around forever.

    [/quote]


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20130111
    * Origin: 2001:470:1f15:1117::1 (2:280/5555)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Michiel van der Vlist on Fri Apr 1 19:10:53 2016
    Michiel van der Vlist -> All skrev 2016-04-01 19:59:
    MvdV> Today I got an e-mail from Jeroen Massaar, head honcjo of SixXs. here is
    MvdV> a quote from that e-mail:

    Darn. GMTA. You beat me to it with seven minutes. 8-)

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Paul Hayton@3:770/100 to Michiel van der Vlist on Sat Apr 2 07:26:52 2016
    On 04/01/16, Michiel van der Vlist pondered and said...


    Today I got an e-mail from Jeroen Massaar, head honcjo of SixXs. here is
    a quote from that e-mail:

    Yes got this also..

    December 2015[6]. We are now fully stopping accepting signups and tunnel
    & subnet requests. We'll also be starting to ratelimit IPv4 speeds on
    the PoPs to make sure that you notice that the freebie that is SixXS
    will not stay around forever.

    That's telling it like it is.... well I have no hope any time soon of getting either of the two national ISPs here to offer IPv6 and I have asked both several times. I hope SixXs is not going to penalise those users that don't really have any option other than to use a tunnel.

    Best, Paul

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A9 (Windows)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | telnet://agency.bbs.geek.nz (3:770/100)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Paul Hayton on Sat Apr 2 08:28:00 2016
    Paul Hayton wrote to Michiel van der Vlist <=-

    That's telling it like it is.... well I have no hope any time soon of getting either of the two national ISPs here to offer IPv6 and I have asked both several times. I hope SixXs is not going to penalise those users that don't really have any option other than to use a tunnel.

    The situation here is similar. I just chose my ISP carefully (ask fellow geeks ;) ), which meant I ended up with native IPv6 years ago, but the majority of users in the country still don't have it. There needs to be IPv6 solutions for those stranded by slack ISPs, maybe free for the user and billed to the offending ISPs? ;) Dunno how that would work, but money is probably the thing needed to push them into adopting IPv6 - have to somehow make it more profitable to offer IPv6 to the general population as part of their standard service.


    ... No Purchase Required. Details in package.
    --- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49
    * Origin: Freeway BBS - freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Tony Langdon on Sat Apr 2 00:36:24 2016
    Hello Tony,

    On Saturday April 02 2016 08:28, you wrote to Paul Hayton:

    Dunno how that would work, but money is probably the thing needed to
    push them into adopting IPv6 - have to somehow make it more profitable
    to offer IPv6 to the general population as part of their standard
    service.

    Lack of a bussines case for IPv6 has been the main reason why ISPs have been dragging their feet for so long. My guess is that the only way to get them moving is to convince them that they will loose customers if they don't.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20130111
    * Origin: 2001:470:1f15:1117::1 (2:280/5555)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Michiel van der Vlist on Sat Apr 2 12:17:00 2016
    Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Tony Langdon <=-

    Lack of a bussines case for IPv6 has been the main reason why ISPs have been dragging their feet for so long. My guess is that the only way to get them moving is to convince them that they will loose customers if they don't.

    The problem there is 95% or more of customers have never heard of IPv6, let alone know what it is and why they would want it. :(


    ... Casserole is just another word for leftovers.
    --- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49
    * Origin: Freeway BBS - freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Tony Langdon on Sat Apr 2 05:18:55 2016
    The problem there is 95% or more of customers have never heard of IPv6, let
    alone know what it is and why they would want it. :(

    Same here (in Sweden). Strange really, now that we get more and more of internet of things. I even guess that my next fridge will have WiFi -- my TV already has and I'm using it to the limit.

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Björn Felten on Sat Apr 2 15:57:00 2016
    Bjrn Felten wrote to Tony Langdon <=-

    Same here (in Sweden). Strange really, now that we get more and more
    of internet of things. I even guess that my next fridge will have WiFi
    -- my TV already has and I'm using it to the limit.

    But these technicalities are beyond the average punter. The only people who understand what IPv6 is are tech heads (like us!). Until those selling these gadgets start telling people to ask for "IPv6 service", there won't be a big queue of people lining up for IPv6.

    And then you get IPv6, nothing really changes for the casual user, you actually have to check to see that it's working. :)


    ... It beeped and said "Countdown initiated". Is that bad?
    --- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49
    * Origin: Freeway BBS - freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Tony Langdon on Sat Apr 2 06:14:39 2016
    And then you get IPv6, nothing really changes for the casual user, you actually have to check to see that it's working. :)

    LOL! Yes indeed, we spend a lot time in this echo about that. :)

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Richard Menedetter@2:310/31 to Tony Langdon on Sat Apr 2 08:32:10 2016
    Hi Tony!

    02 Apr 2016 12:17, from Tony Langdon -> Michiel van der Vlist:

    Lack of a bussines case for IPv6 has been the main reason why
    ISPs have been dragging their feet for so long. My guess is that
    the only way to get them moving is to convince them that they
    will loose customers if they don't.
    The problem there is 95% or more of customers have never heard of
    IPv6, let alone know what it is and why they would want it. :(

    I could get it natively, but only at the price of going DS-Lite, and loosing my public v4 address.

    I am not willing to do that.

    CU, Ricsi

    --- GoldED+/LNX
    * Origin: fido.ricsi.priv.at (2:310/31)
  • From Markus Reschke@2:240/1661 to Tony Langdon on Sat Apr 2 11:32:16 2016
    Hello Tony!

    Apr 02 08:28 2016, Tony Langdon wrote to Paul Hayton:

    The situation here is similar. I just chose my ISP carefully (ask
    fellow geeks ;) ), which meant I ended up with native IPv6 years ago,
    but the majority of users in the country still don't have it. There needs to be IPv6 solutions for those stranded by slack ISPs, maybe
    free for the user and billed to the offending ISPs? ;) Dunno how that would work, but money is probably the thing needed to push them into adopting IPv6 - have to somehow make it more profitable to offer IPv6
    to the general population as part of their standard service.

    Actually it's very simple. Any Internet access without IPv6 isn't a full Internet access anymore. The local telecommunications regulation should enforce that an Internet access has to support IPv4 and IPv6. Any ISP not providing IPv6 or demanding some extra fee for that should be ashamed. They all had more than sufficient time to enable IPv6 in their networks. Now, that ARIN only got a few IPv4 /24s left, there's no excuse to postpone IPv6 any longer. Name and shame those morons! Explain to people that they need IPv6 and demand it from your telcos!

    ciao,
    Markus

    ---
    * Origin: *** theca tabellaria *** (2:240/1661)
  • From Markus Reschke@2:240/1661 to Michiel van der Vlist on Sat Apr 2 11:50:56 2016
    Hi Michiel!

    Apr 02 00:36 2016, Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Tony Langdon:

    MvdV> Lack of a bussines case for IPv6 has been the main reason why ISPs
    MvdV> have been dragging their feet for so long. My guess is that the
    MvdV> only way to get them moving is to convince them that they will
    MvdV> loose customers if they don't.

    IPv6 is not a business case, it's an intrinsic feature to be able to use the Internet. If those management morons don't get it, fix it by regulation.

    Cheers,
    Markus

    ---
    * Origin: *** theca tabellaria *** (2:240/1661)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Richard Menedetter on Sat Apr 2 12:02:43 2016
    Hello Richard,

    On Saturday April 02 2016 08:32, you wrote to Tony Langdon:

    The problem there is 95% or more of customers have never heard of
    IPv6, let alone know what it is and why they would want it. :(

    I could get it natively, but only at the price of going DS-Lite, and loosing my public v4 address.

    I am not willing to do that.

    I fully understand. Th irony is that those who are aware of IPv6, the geeks, are also the ones who are very reluctant to let go of their public IP4 address yet. Auntie Mildred and uncle Harry may be quit satisfied with Ds-lite and they may never notice that their IPv4 connection is not an end to end connection. But we want full dual stack. For now at least.

    That is why I say the ISPs should have rolled out IPv6 five years ago. Back then there was no shortage of IPv4 yet and they could have given everyone dual stack. Had they started five years ago, the child diseases would have been fixed and the whole world or at least the largest part would have been on IPv6, so that the most of the guys like us would not need a public IPv4 address any more.

    We now have 42 IPv6 capable nodes in Fidonet. If the situation were the reverse: i.e. there were only 42 nodes that could not be reached using IPv6, then I could do without a public IPv4 address and happily live with a DS-Lite connection.

    As it is, it seems I am one of the few lucky ones that will still get a dual stack connection. Here two major cable companies UPC and Ziggo have done a merger. The continue undert the name of Ziggo. Ipv6 is being rolled out. But here is difference between the region formerly covered by UPC and the region covered by the old Ziggo. Former UPC gets DS-lite, former Ziggo gets dual stack. I am in the old Ziggo region.

    Ziggo has been telling they will roll out IPv6 "later this year"for the last five years. Itseem that now they are actual;ly doing it and I have a little bit of hope that "this year" will actually be 2016.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20130111
    * Origin: 2001:470:1f15:1117::1 (2:280/5555)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Markus Reschke on Sat Apr 2 21:43:00 2016
    Markus Reschke wrote to Tony Langdon <=-

    Actually it's very simple. Any Internet access without IPv6 isn't a
    full Internet access anymore. The local telecommunications regulation should enforce that an Internet access has to support IPv4 and IPv6.
    Any ISP not providing IPv6 or demanding some extra fee for that should
    be ashamed. They all had more than sufficient time to enable IPv6 in
    their networks. Now, that ARIN only got a few IPv4 /24s left, there's
    no excuse to postpone IPv6 any longer. Name and shame those morons! Explain to people that they need IPv6 and demand it from your telcos!

    That might take a while here too. :(


    ... Everywhere is within walking distance if you have the time.
    --- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49
    * Origin: Freeway BBS - freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)
  • From Markus Reschke@2:240/1661 to Michiel van der Vlist on Sat Apr 2 14:03:40 2016
    Hi Michiel!

    Apr 02 12:02 2016, Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Richard Menedetter:

    I could get it natively, but only at the price of going DS-Lite, and
    loosing my public v4 address.

    I am not willing to do that.

    MvdV> I fully understand. Th irony is that those who are aware of IPv6,
    MvdV> the geeks, are also the ones who are very reluctant to let go of
    MvdV> their public IP4 address yet. Auntie Mildred and uncle Harry may be
    MvdV> quit satisfied with Ds-lite and they may never notice that their
    MvdV> IPv4 connection is not an end to end connection. But we want full
    MvdV> dual stack. For now at least.

    A clever ISP/telco would offer an IPv4 address as option for geeks, if they don't got enough IPv4 address space for all customers. The other 99% of the customers will be happy with DS-lite.

    Regards,
    Markus

    ---
    * Origin: *** theca tabellaria *** (2:240/1661)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Michiel van der Vlist on Sat Apr 2 23:42:00 2016
    Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Richard Menedetter <=-

    I fully understand. Th irony is that those who are aware of IPv6, the geeks, are also the ones who are very reluctant to let go of their
    public IP4 address yet. Auntie Mildred and uncle Harry may be quit satisfied with Ds-lite and they may never notice that their IPv4 connection is not an end to end connection. But we want full dual
    stack. For now at least.

    Geeks want everything, and by the looks of it, I could be needing to have a public IPv4 for at least 10 years more, because one class of applications, in particular, is very slow to adopt IPv6, namely ham radio software. Very little of it knows what IPv6 is. The only one that I know of is Asterisk (used in AllStar and VKLink).

    IRLP, Echolink, D-STAR, etc all require a public IPv4 address to function properly (often port forwarding will work).

    That is why I say the ISPs should have rolled out IPv6 five years ago. Back then there was no shortage of IPv4 yet and they could have given everyone dual stack. Had they started five years ago, the child
    diseases would have been fixed and the whole world or at least the largest part would have been on IPv6, so that the most of the guys like us would not need a public IPv4 address any more.

    Well, my ISP _did_ roll out IPv6 5 years ago. Admitedly, it was on trial at the time (but went production only months later)

    We now have 42 IPv6 capable nodes in Fidonet. If the situation were the reverse: i.e. there were only 42 nodes that could not be reached using IPv6, then I could do without a public IPv4 address and happily live
    with a DS-Lite connection.

    At this stage, I can initiate and accept mailer sessions (which is enough for Fidonet to worry about ;) ) on IPv6. Waiting for the next software update for the BBS itself (the author says IPv6 support is due in the next release :) ) to be IPv6 capable. I had to change my nodelist entry to ensure Fidonet mailers can initiate IPv6 sessions to me, without changing the user access hostname. I'll be able to drop that distinction after the BBS upgrade.

    As it is, it seems I am one of the few lucky ones that will still get a dual stack connection. Here two major cable companies UPC and Ziggo
    have done a merger. The continue undert the name of Ziggo. Ipv6 is
    being rolled out. But here is difference between the region formerly covered by UPC and the region covered by the old Ziggo. Former UPC gets DS-lite, former Ziggo gets dual stack. I am in the old Ziggo region.

    My ISP has no plans to phase out public IPv4 addresses. Even my iPad on 3G gets a public IPv4 address from them, mobile public IPv4 is quite rare these days.

    Ziggo has been telling they will roll out IPv6 "later this year"for the last five years. Itseem that now they are actual;ly doing it and I have
    a little bit of hope that "this year" will actually be 2016.

    Let's hope so. :)


    ... Growing older is typical. Growing up is the option.
    --- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49
    * Origin: Freeway BBS - freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Paul Hayton on Sat Apr 2 15:41:31 2016
    Hello Paul,

    On Saturday April 02 2016 07:26, you wrote to me:

    December 2015[6]. We are now fully stopping accepting signups and
    tunnel & subnet requests. We'll also be starting to ratelimit
    IPv4 speeds on the PoPs to make sure that you notice that the
    freebie that is SixXS will not stay around forever.

    That's telling it like it is....

    They already started this in December: https://www.sixxs.net/news/2015/#callyourispforipv6-1201

    At first this was to be a temporary action, but it was exented several times.

    https://www.sixxs.net/news/2016/

    And now it seems to be permanent. Or was that "permanent" part an April fool's joke? Whatever it is, it is not possible to request a tunnel at this moment.

    If this means SixXs will shut down completely is unknown. Maybe Jeroen Massar has lost interest in the project. He has been doing it for 15 years now. This sometimes happens with volunteers.

    well I have no hope any time soon of getting either of the two
    national ISPs here to offer IPv6 and I have asked both several times.
    I hope SixXs is not going to penalise those users that don't really
    have any option other than to use a tunnel.

    SiXs shutting down would not be the end of the world. SixXs has been offering a fine service, but they are not the only fish in the sea. Hurricane Electric is doing a fine job and frankly they are a bit more relaxed than SixXs who wants their clients to jump though hoops. I understand that "down undah" there are also local companies offering tunnels.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20130111
    * Origin: 2001:470:1f15:1117::1 (2:280/5555)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Markus Reschke on Sat Apr 2 16:28:00 2016
    Hello Markus,

    On Saturday April 02 2016 11:32, you wrote to Tony Langdon:

    Actually it's very simple. Any Internet access without IPv6 isn't a
    full Internet access anymore. The local telecommunications regulation should enforce that an Internet access has to support IPv4 and IPv6.

    I agree that here is every reason to call an IPv4 only connection crippled. But how do I convince a politician of that? They probably will say something like "Eyepeevee what? My internet works fine so what do you mean it is crippled?"

    Any ISP not providing IPv6 or demanding some extra fee for that should
    be ashamed. They all had more than sufficient time to enable IPv6 in
    their networks. Now, that ARIN only got a few IPv4 /24s left, there's
    no excuse to postpone IPv6 any longer.

    Indeed, they had plenty of time and ample warning. They can't claim they did not see it coming.

    Name and shame those morons! Explain to people that they need IPv6 and demand it from your telcos!

    I have been doing that for many years. I feel likle a loner calling in the desert. :(


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20130111
    * Origin: 2001:470:1f15:1117::1 (2:280/5555)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Markus Reschke on Sat Apr 2 16:39:37 2016
    Hello Markus,

    On Saturday April 02 2016 11:50, you wrote to me:

    MvdV>> Lack of a bussines case for IPv6 has been the main reason why
    MvdV>> ISPs have been dragging their feet for so long. My guess is
    MvdV>> that the only way to get them moving is to convince them that
    MvdV>> they will loose customers if they don't.

    IPv6 is not a business case, it's an intrinsic feature to be able to
    use the Internet. If those management morons don't get it, fix it by regulation.

    Then we need to convince the politicians to give that power to the regulators. Here in The Netherlands, we have the so called IPv6 Task Force. But they are a toothless tiger that fell asleep.

    http://new.ipv6-taskforce.nl/


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20130111
    * Origin: 2001:470:1f15:1117::1 (2:280/5555)
  • From Joacim Melin@2:203/242 to Bj÷rn Felten on Sat Apr 2 15:17:14 2016
    The problem there is 95% or more of customers have never heard of IPv6, l
    et
    alone know what it is and why they would want it. :(

    Same here (in Sweden). Strange really, now that we get more and
    more of internet of things. I even guess that my next fridge will
    have WiFi -- my TV already has and I'm using it to the limit.

    I've been trying to get IPv6 from my ISP for the last year or so. I already have three fixed IP addresses (IPv4) but would really like to learn more about using IPv6.

    --- NiKom v2.0.0debug
    * Origin: Delta City BBS (deltacity.se, +46-8-6058800) (2:203/242.0)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Markus Reschke on Sat Apr 2 17:12:51 2016
    Hello Markus,

    On Saturday April 02 2016 14:03, you wrote to me:

    MvdV>> let go of their public IP4 address yet. Auntie Mildred and
    MvdV>> uncle Harry may be quit satisfied with Ds-lite and they may
    MvdV>> never notice that their IPv4 connection is not an end to end
    MvdV>> connection. But we want full dual stack. For now at least.

    A clever ISP/telco would offer an IPv4 address as option for geeks, if they don't got enough IPv4 address space for all customers. The other
    99% of the customers will be happy with DS-lite.

    Sure. We have run out of IPv4 addresses, but they are not burned like oil. It means we can't get any more new ones, but the old ones are still there. I have an IPv4 address now, I see no compelling logistic reason why I could not keep it forever. But I am afraid that the ISPs would not pass uop the opportunity to milk some more money from their customers and at some point only offer a pubic IPv4 address with bussines connections.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20130111
    * Origin: 2001:470:1f15:1117::1 (2:280/5555)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Tony Langdon on Sat Apr 2 17:22:52 2016
    Hello Tony,

    On Saturday April 02 2016 23:42, you wrote to me:

    Geeks want everything, and by the looks of it, I could be needing to
    have a public IPv4 for at least 10 years more, because one class of applications, in particular, is very slow to adopt IPv6, namely ham
    radio software.

    The irony is that an entire /8 has been reserved for Amateur Radio Digital Communications, but AFAIK was never used as such. (044/8)
    http://www.iana.org/assignments/ipv4-address-space/ipv4-address-space.xhtm

    Very little of it knows what IPv6 is. The only one
    that I know of is Asterisk (used in AllStar and VKLink).

    IRLP, Echolink, D-STAR, etc all require a public IPv4 address to
    function properly (often port forwarding will work).

    That is why I say the ISPs should have rolled out IPv6 five
    years ago. Back then there was no shortage of IPv4 yet and they
    could have given everyone dual stack. Had they started five
    years ago, the child diseases would have been fixed and the
    whole world or at least the largest part would have been on
    IPv6, so that the most of the guys like us would not need a
    public IPv4 address any more.

    Well, my ISP _did_ roll out IPv6 5 years ago. Admitedly, it was on
    trial at the time (but went production only months later)

    I have never used any of these applications, I played iwth Packet Radio, but that was AX25, not TCP/IP.

    But... should not the same that we are critisizing the ISPs for, also apply to the authors of that software. They too had plenty of time and could have seen it coming. They should be ashamed and be punished by their software being thrown in the bit bucket.

    We now have 42 IPv6 capable nodes in Fidonet. If the situation
    were the reverse: i.e. there were only 42 nodes that could not be
    reached using IPv6, then I could do without a public IPv4 address
    and happily live with a DS-Lite connection.

    At this stage, I can initiate and accept mailer sessions (which is
    enough for Fidonet to worry about ;) ) on IPv6.

    So Fidonet is saved. ;-)

    Waiting for the next software update for the BBS itself (the author
    says IPv6 support is due in the next release :) ) to be IPv6 capable.

    The introduction of metered local calls around 1990 is what killed the BBS in this part of the world. It was a great incentive for users to become points. The last user spotted in the wild was around 1996. Users are a virtually extinct species here. Most sysops closed their BBS and went mail only. So... BBS's not supporting IPv6 is not an issue of concern here...

    My ISP has no plans to phase out public IPv4 addresses. Even my iPad
    on 3G gets a public IPv4 address from them,

    Lucky for you.

    mobile public IPv4 is quite rare these days.

    Here all the mobile providers have stopped issuing public IPv4 adresses years ago. I have a 3G dongle from KPN for my laptop and i get a RFC1918 or RFC 9598 adress. No IPv6.

    Ziggo has been telling they will roll out IPv6 "later this
    year" for the last five years. Itseem that now they are actual;ly
    doing it and I have a little bit of hope that "this year" will
    actually be 2016.

    Let's hope so. :)

    I am not holding my breath...


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20130111
    * Origin: 2001:470:1f15:1117::1 (2:280/5555)
  • From Jeff Smith@1:14/5 to Tony Langdon on Fri Apr 1 21:41:06 2016
    Hello Tony.

    02 Apr 16 12:17, you wrote to Michiel van der Vlist:

    Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Tony Langdon <=-

    Lack of a bussines case for IPv6 has been the main reason why
    ISPs have been dragging their feet for so long. My guess is that
    the only way to get them moving is to convince them that they
    will loose customers if they don't.

    The problem there is 95% or more of customers have never heard of
    IPv6, let alone know what it is and why they would want it. :(

    Some ISP's (At least mine) are a tad behind regarding IPv6 too. Last time
    I talked to my ISP's tech support regarding IPv6 availibility I had the impression that I was providing them more knowledge than I was getting
    from them.

    ... Casserole is just another word for leftovers.
    --- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49
    * Origin: Freeway BBS - freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)

    Jeff

    --- GoldED+/W32-MINGW 1.1.5-b20070503
    * Origin: Region 14 IP Server - ftn.region14.org (1:14/5)
  • From Markus Reschke@2:240/1661 to Michiel van der Vlist on Sat Apr 2 19:17:18 2016
    Hello Michiel!

    Apr 02 16:28 2016, Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Markus Reschke:

    MvdV> I agree that here is every reason to call an IPv4 only connection
    MvdV> crippled. But how do I convince a politician of that? They probably
    MvdV> will say something like "Eyepeevee what? My internet works fine so
    MvdV> what do you mean it is crippled?"

    We have to find something they are able to understand. Maybe telephone numbers. IPv4 is like having telephone numbers with up to 6 digits and IPv6 would be 12 digits. If your telco only supports up to 6 digits you can't call people with an 8 digit telephone number.

    Name and shame those morons! Explain to people that they need IPv6
    and demand it from your telcos!

    MvdV> I have been doing that for many years. I feel likle a loner calling
    MvdV> in the desert. :(

    Meanwhile it's a small team ;)

    Regards,
    Markus

    ---
    * Origin: *** theca tabellaria *** (2:240/1661)
  • From Markus Reschke@2:240/1661 to Michiel van der Vlist on Sat Apr 2 19:24:34 2016
    Hello Michiel!

    Apr 02 16:39 2016, Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Markus Reschke:

    MvdV> Then we need to convince the politicians to give that power to the
    MvdV> regulators. Here in The Netherlands, we have the so called IPv6
    MvdV> Task Force. But they are a toothless tiger that fell asleep.

    Maybe IPv6 could be squeezed into the net neutrality discussion. If an ISP doesn't forward IPv6 packets it's a violation of net neutrality.

    Regards,
    Markus

    ---
    * Origin: *** theca tabellaria *** (2:240/1661)
  • From Roger Nelson@1:3828/7 to Jeff Smith on Sat Apr 2 14:01:19 2016
    On Fri Apr-01-2016 21:41, Jeff Smith (1:14/5) wrote to Tony Langdon:

    Hello Tony.

    02 Apr 16 12:17, you wrote to Michiel van der Vlist:

    Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Tony Langdon <=-

    Some ISP's (At least mine) are a tad behind regarding IPv6 too.
    Last time I talked to my ISP's tech support regarding IPv6
    availibility I had the impression that I was providing them more
    knowledge than I was getting from them.

    My ISP is like that, too. I had a tech out here last week upgrading my RG (Regional Gateway) to double speed (a gift from them), but the tech knew nothing about IPv6. I showed him my temporary IPv6 address and asked if he knew someone that knew someone who could give me an answer as to when it would be implemented and was told no. So, it's there, but not yet activated.


    Regards,

    Roger
    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+ Windows 10
    * Origin: NCS BBS - Houma, LoUiSiAna - (1:3828/7)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Markus Reschke on Sun Apr 3 00:27:04 2016
    Hello Markus,

    On Saturday April 02 2016 19:24, you wrote to me:

    MvdV>> Then we need to convince the politicians to give that power to
    MvdV>> the regulators. Here in The Netherlands, we have the so called
    MvdV>> IPv6 Task Force. But they are a toothless tiger that fell
    MvdV>> asleep.

    Maybe IPv6 could be squeezed into the net neutrality discussion. If an
    ISP doesn't forward IPv6 packets it's a violation of net neutrality.

    That angle has been explored before. But be careful what you wish for. Some idiot may argue that the same applies to X25, IPX and IBM token ring. Forcing ISPs to support every conceivable protocol under net neutrality would make the cost rise sky high. That would not be in the interest of the consumer.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20130111
    * Origin: 2001:470:1f15:1117::1 (2:280/5555)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Michiel van der Vlist on Sun Apr 3 07:57:00 2016
    Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Tony Langdon <=-

    Hello Tony,

    On Saturday April 02 2016 23:42, you wrote to me:

    Geeks want everything, and by the looks of it, I could be needing to
    have a public IPv4 for at least 10 years more, because one class of applications, in particular, is very slow to adopt IPv6, namely ham
    radio software.

    The irony is that an entire /8 has been reserved for Amateur Radio Digital Communications, but AFAIK was never used as such. (044/8) http://www.iana.org/assignments/ipv4-address-space/ipv4-address-space.xh tm

    Yes, but the developers, both hobbyist and commercial, have been _very_ slow to adopt IPv6 in their software. I don't know if that's an issue with knowledge and experience, or compatibility fears, given some of the systems are global in nature (and a lot of developers are in the US).

    I have never used any of these applications, I played iwth Packet
    Radio, but that was AX25, not TCP/IP.

    I was running IP over AX.25 in 1991. :)

    But... should not the same that we are critisizing the ISPs for, also apply to the authors of that software. They too had plenty of time and could have seen it coming. They should be ashamed and be punished by their software being thrown in the bit bucket.

    I agree, but it's hard to get much response on the subject of IPv6 (I have tried!). There are one or two who are keen on adopting IPv6. AAnother issue now is the legacy systems, which are not going to be easily upgraded, with the protocols dating back to the mid 1990s and now supporting large scale networks, a migration strategy would need to be developed (and even then it's imperfect, because of basic issues like an IPv4 peer not being able to contact an IPv6 only peer). But in a single hit, one would solve the most common support bugbear - port forwarding/router configuration issues! :)

    At this stage, I can initiate and accept mailer sessions (which is
    enough for Fidonet to worry about ;) ) on IPv6.

    So Fidonet is saved. ;-)

    Well, at 42, we have the answer to life, the Universe and everything. ;)

    Waiting for the next software update for the BBS itself (the author
    says IPv6 support is due in the next release :) ) to be IPv6 capable.

    The introduction of metered local calls around 1990 is what killed the BBS in this part of the world. It was a great incentive for users to become points. The last user spotted in the wild was around 1996. Users are a virtually extinct species here. Most sysops closed their BBS and went mail only. So... BBS's not supporting IPv6 is not an issue of concern here...

    Big difference here, if anything, there is now _more_ scope for dialup, at least from a cost perspective. In addition to maintaining untimed local calls (which encourage long interactive sessions), many telcos now offer bundling discounts that include free or untimed calls to _any_ fixed line in the country (at the cost of a higher monthly fee). These plans are ideal for the serious BBSer (are there any left? ;) ). We had users up until the original BBS closed in 1998, and dialup Internet users were commonplace until the mid 2000s, when ADSL finally became affordable and commonplace. I think some ISPs still offer dialup, at least as a backup form of access, usually with a national untimed number.

    My ISP has no plans to phase out public IPv4 addresses. Even my iPad
    on 3G gets a public IPv4 address from them,

    Lucky for you.

    mobile public IPv4 is quite rare these days.

    Here all the mobile providers have stopped issuing public IPv4 adresses years ago. I have a 3G dongle from KPN for my laptop and i get a
    RFC1918 or RFC 9598 adress. No IPv6.

    That's the normal situation here too, but there are exceptions.

    Ziggo has been telling they will roll out IPv6 "later this
    year" for the last five years. Itseem that now they are actual;ly
    doing it and I have a little bit of hope that "this year" will
    actually be 2016.

    Let's hope so. :)

    I am not holding my breath...

    You're looking a nice shade of blue. ;)



    ... Daddy, what does "now formatting drive C:" mean?
    --- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49
    * Origin: Freeway BBS - freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Jeff Smith on Sun Apr 3 07:58:00 2016
    Jeff Smith wrote to Tony Langdon <=-

    Some ISP's (At least mine) are a tad behind regarding IPv6 too. Last
    time I talked to my ISP's tech support regarding IPv6 availibility I
    had the impression that I was providing them more knowledge than I was getting from them.

    That sounds like the majority of support calls I have with most ISPs. The ISP I'm with are an exception, you can skip the baby steps with them and talk about the nitty gritty details of a problem (and they are very good at getting things done).


    ... hAS ANYONE SEEN MY cAPSLOCK KEY?
    --- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49
    * Origin: Freeway BBS - freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Markus Reschke on Sun Apr 3 08:03:00 2016
    Markus Reschke wrote to Michiel van der Vlist <=-

    A clever ISP/telco would offer an IPv4 address as option for geeks, if they don't got enough IPv4 address space for all customers. The other
    99% of the customers will be happy with DS-lite.

    And some of us geeks are happy to work around things. I get a /29 via a tunnel, because one public IPv4 isn't enough. I'm probably what the future geeks and IPv4 holdouts will look like - native IPv6, tunneled IPv4 (I do have native IPv4 from my ISP, but only one of em ;) ). I could certainly "survive" on DS-lite with my setup. If my ISP did that today (they won't), I could have everything back up on IPv4 with nothing more than a couple of hosts getting an additional IP address and changed routing, and a couple of changed DNS entries.


    ... It beeped and said "Countdown initiated". Is that bad?
    --- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49
    * Origin: Freeway BBS - freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)
  • From Jeff Smith@1:14/5 to Tony Langdon on Sat Apr 2 18:17:48 2016
    Hello Tony.

    03 Apr 16 07:58, you wrote to me:

    Jeff Smith wrote to Tony Langdon <=-

    Some ISP's (At least mine) are a tad behind regarding IPv6 too.
    Last time I talked to my ISP's tech support regarding IPv6
    availibility I had the impression that I was providing them more
    knowledge than I was getting from them.

    That sounds like the majority of support calls I have with most ISPs.
    The ISP I'm with are an exception, you can skip the baby steps with
    them and talk about the nitty gritty details of a problem (and they
    are very good at getting things done).

    I found that my ISP has several tiers of support. The first level that a
    user reaches always seem to be reading what they are saying and the questions that they are asking. In short order I just started asking them to connect
    me to a higher tier of support right from the start. But recently when I inquired about the availability of native IPv6 support I was transfered
    several times and then still didn't get a specific answer. For now they are actually providing 6RD support to customers.


    ... hAS ANYONE SEEN MY cAPSLOCK KEY?
    --- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49
    * Origin: Freeway BBS - freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)

    Jeff

    --- GoldED+/W32-MINGW 1.1.5-b20070503
    * Origin: Region 14 IP Server - ftn.region14.org (1:14/5)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Jeff Smith on Sun Apr 3 12:58:00 2016
    Jeff Smith wrote to Tony Langdon <=-

    I found that my ISP has several tiers of support. The first level that
    a user reaches always seem to be reading what they are saying and the questions that they are asking. In short order I just started asking
    them to connect me to a higher tier of support right from the start.
    But recently when I inquired about the availability of native IPv6
    support I was transfered several times and then still didn't get a specific answer. For now they are actually providing 6RD support to customers.

    Cool. My ISP's support is excellent, I've never had to escalate anything, the first port of call will go through more obscure isssues, if needed. As for IPv6, I don't have to ask, it's all on their website how to turn it on (if it isn't already ;) ). Yes, we (the users) can turn our own IPv6 support on and off. I think on new connections, it defaults to on now (when I joined it defaulted to off, but I fixed that as soon as I had a suitable router :) ).




    ... I find circuses a little too sinister.
    --- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49
    * Origin: Freeway BBS - freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)
  • From Markus Reschke@2:240/1661 to Michiel van der Vlist on Sun Apr 3 12:36:26 2016
    Hello Michiel!

    Apr 03 00:27 2016, Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Markus Reschke:

    Maybe IPv6 could be squeezed into the net neutrality discussion. If
    an ISP doesn't forward IPv6 packets it's a violation of net
    neutrality.

    MvdV> That angle has been explored before. But be careful what you wish
    MvdV> for. Some idiot may argue that the same applies to X25, IPX and IBM
    MvdV> token ring. Forcing ISPs to support every conceivable protocol
    MvdV> under net neutrality would make the cost rise sky high. That would
    MvdV> not be in the interest of the consumer.

    X25: dedicated network
    IPX: maybe
    Token Ring: OSI layer 2

    Anyway, we're talking about IP based networks.

    ciao,
    Markus

    ---
    * Origin: *** theca tabellaria *** (2:240/1661)
  • From Richard Menedetter@2:310/31 to Michiel Van Der Vlist on Sun Apr 3 20:33:14 2016
    Hi Michiel!

    02 Apr 2016 12:02, from Michiel van der Vlist -> Richard Menedetter:

    I could get it natively, but only at the price of going DS-Lite,
    and loosing my public v4 address.
    I am not willing to do that.
    I fully understand.

    I really do not understand why they do not throw in IPv6 in the mix ...
    But that is how it is :(

    But we want full dual stack. For now at least.

    Indeed!

    As it is, it seems I am one of the few lucky ones that will still get
    a dual stack connection. Here two major cable companies UPC and Ziggo
    have done a merger. The continue undert the name of Ziggo. Ipv6 is
    being rolled out. But here is difference between the region formerly covered by UPC and the region covered by the old Ziggo. Former UPC
    gets DS-lite, former Ziggo gets dual stack. I am in the old Ziggo
    region.

    I am at UPC Austria ... this is a DS-Lite only area :(

    Ziggo has been telling they will roll out IPv6 "later this year"for
    the last five years. Itseem that now they are actual;ly doing it and I have a little bit of hope that "this year" will actually be 2016.

    I am holding my fingers crossed!

    CU, Ricsi

    --- GoldED+/LNX
    * Origin: fido.ricsi.priv.at (2:310/31)
  • From Richard Menedetter@2:310/31 to Markus Reschke on Sun Apr 3 20:37:06 2016
    Hi Markus!

    02 Apr 2016 14:03, from Markus Reschke -> Michiel van der Vlist:

    A clever ISP/telco would offer an IPv4 address as option for geeks, if they don't got enough IPv4 address space for all customers. The other
    99% of the customers will be happy with DS-lite.

    I had a discussion about that with an ISP.

    They were looking into PCP (Port Control Protocol).
    Which is the dumbest thing ... a way to get some port forwards on carrier grade NATv4.

    I proposed just the same as you ...
    It makes much more sense, you can charge additionally something for the v4 address, and it is less hassle for the ISP and the customer ...

    Nope ...

    CU, Ricsi

    --- GoldED+/LNX
    * Origin: fido.ricsi.priv.at (2:310/31)
  • From Richard Menedetter@2:310/31 to Michiel Van Der Vlist on Sun Apr 3 20:44:02 2016
    Hi Michiel!

    02 Apr 2016 17:12, from Michiel van der Vlist -> Markus Reschke:

    We have run out of IPv4 addresses, but they are not burned like
    oil. It means we can't get any more new ones, but the old ones are
    still there. I have an IPv4 address now, I see no compelling logistic reason why I could not keep it forever.

    UPC Austria converts IPv4 connections to DS-Lite!
    Without asking ... and without warning.
    When you complain and they are in a good mood, they will convert you back ...

    CU, Ricsi

    --- GoldED+/LNX
    * Origin: fido.ricsi.priv.at (2:310/31)
  • From Richard Menedetter@2:310/31 to Michiel Van Der Vlist on Sun Apr 3 20:46:14 2016
    Hi Michiel!

    02 Apr 2016 17:22, from Michiel van der Vlist -> Tony Langdon:

    The irony is that an entire /8 has been reserved for Amateur Radio
    Digital Communications, but AFAIK was never used as such. (044/8) http://www.iana.org/assignments/ipv4-address-space/ipv4-address-space. xhtm

    It is being used.
    I have one at home (inet addr:44.143.24.52)
    Most of them are allocated for HAMNet (eg. the above).
    But some are also routed to the "real" Internet (eg. some EchoLink Proxies in that range)

    mobile public IPv4 is quite rare these days.
    Here all the mobile providers have stopped issuing public IPv4
    adresses years ago. I have a 3G dongle from KPN for my laptop and i
    get a RFC1918 or RFC 9598 adress. No IPv6.

    I *DO* have a dynamic IPv4 on my mobile. (Hitchison 3g)
    Most other companies use carrier grade NAT and private address space.

    CU, Ricsi

    --- GoldED+/LNX
    * Origin: fido.ricsi.priv.at (2:310/31)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Richard Menedetter on Sun Apr 3 23:24:28 2016
    Hello Richard,

    On Sunday April 03 2016 20:33, you wrote to me:

    I could get it natively, but only at the price of going DS-Lite,
    and loosing my public v4 address.
    I am not willing to do that.

    I fully understand.

    I fully understand why you do not want to give up your public IPv4 address yet.

    I really do not understand why they do not throw in IPv6 in the mix
    ... But that is how it is :(

    I think I can understand it. They are actually thinking ahead. An IPv6 only network is less complicated than a dual stack network. And in the end hat is what we will end up with anyway. So why not go for an IPv6 only core network and as a transtion mechanism offer IPv4 via a tunneling mechanism?

    But we want full dual stack. For now at least.

    Indeed!

    As my fellow countryman, ex fidonet sysop and IPv6 Guru Iljitsch van Beijnum remarked in his essays: the transition will be ugly... :-(

    As it is, it seems I am one of the few lucky ones that will still
    get a dual stack connection. Here two major cable companies UPC
    and Ziggo have done a merger. The continue undert the name of
    Ziggo. Ipv6 is being rolled out. But here is difference between
    the region formerly covered by UPC and the region covered by the
    old Ziggo. Former UPC gets DS-lite, former Ziggo gets dual stack.
    I am in the old Ziggo region.

    I am at UPC Austria ... this is a DS-Lite only area :(

    So let me ask you and think about this carefully: how much would it really hurt you to go DS-Lite? How much do you really need a public IPv4 address? If push comes to shove, how much would you be willing to pay for it?

    Ziggo has been telling they will roll out IPv6 "later this
    year" for the last five years. Itseem that now they are actual;ly
    doing it and I have a little bit of hope that "this year" will
    actually be 2016.

    I am holding my fingers crossed!

    So am I. ;-_)


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20130111
    * Origin: 2001:470:1f15:1117::1 (2:280/5555)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Richard Menedetter on Mon Apr 4 12:10:39 2016
    Hello Richard,

    On Sunday April 03 2016 20:44, you wrote to me:

    UPC Austria converts IPv4 connections to DS-Lite!
    Without asking ... and without warning.
    When you complain and they are in a good mood, they will convert you
    back ...

    It isn't "nice", but I sort of can understand this policy. It is comparable to what manufactturers of consumer electronics did with regard to RF immunity. Nowaday it must be immune up to 3 Volt/meter but before that they figured it was cheaper to individually deal with the very few cases that were affected than to make everything immune.

    DS-Lite is cheaper and simpler in the long run than dual stack because they only have to maintain an IPv6 only core network. When they annouce the transition to DS-Lite, the helpdesk will be flooded. When they silently move to DS-Lite, only a small minority of the customers will notice and and an even smaller part of them will complain and want a public IPv4 address.

    It is not "nice" but as a bussines plan, I can understand it.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20130111
    * Origin: 2001:470:1f15:1117::1 (2:280/5555)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Michiel van der Vlist on Mon Apr 4 13:16:38 2016
    MvdV> It is not "nice" but as a business plan, I can understand it.

    But as usual the broadband providers are slow to adapt. IP guru Jeff Doyle wrote an article about D-S Lite in Network World already in 2009.




    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Richard Menedetter on Mon Apr 4 21:53:42 2016
    Hello Richard,

    On Sunday April 03 2016 20:46, you wrote to me:

    I have one at home (inet addr:44.143.24.52)

    It doesn't ping.

    Most of them are allocated for HAMNet (eg. the above).
    But some are also routed to the "real" Internet (eg. some EchoLink
    Proxies in that range)

    If it is not routed on the public internet than it serves no purpose to use a public address, Might as well use address in one of the RFC1918 ranges.

    mobile public IPv4 is quite rare these days.

    Here all the mobile providers have stopped issuing public IPv4
    adresses years ago. I have a 3G dongle from KPN for my laptop and
    i get a RFC1918 or RFC 9598 adress. No IPv6.

    I *DO* have a dynamic IPv4 on my mobile. (Hitchison 3g)
    Most other companies use carrier grade NAT and private address space.

    I think the SixXs "call your ISP about IPv6" action should apply to mobile ISPs as well,

    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20130111
    * Origin: 2001:470:1f15:1117::1 (2:280/5555)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Björn Felten on Mon Apr 4 22:01:25 2016
    Hello Bjrn,

    On Monday April 04 2016 13:16, you wrote to me:

    MvdV>> It is not "nice" but as a business plan, I can understand it.

    But as usual the broadband providers are slow to adapt. IP guru
    Jeff Doyle wrote an article about D-S Lite in Network World already in 2009.

    Actually, as a technology, DS-Lite has merits. It has the great advantage over dual stack that the core network can be IPv6 only. An IPv6 only network is much simpler than a dual stack network. So,easier to maintain, easier to debug and therefore cheaper.

    Only the CPE and the gateway to the IPv4 internet need stuff to tunnel/detunnel the IPv4 packets.



    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20130111
    * Origin: 2001:470:1f15:1117::1 (2:280/5555)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Michiel van der Vlist on Mon Apr 4 23:31:45 2016
    MvdV> Only the CPE and the gateway to the IPv4 internet need stuff to
    MvdV> tunnel/detunnel the IPv4 packets.

    True. Unfortunately it also means that two IPv4 hosts can not connect. A real problem for all the fido systems that still haven't seen the light, I'd say.

    The time is running out...

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Michiel van der Vlist on Tue Apr 5 08:26:00 2016
    Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Richard Menedetter <=-

    DS-Lite is cheaper and simpler in the long run than dual stack because they only have to maintain an IPv6 only core network. When they annouce the transition to DS-Lite, the helpdesk will be flooded. When they silently move to DS-Lite, only a small minority of the customers will notice and and an even smaller part of them will complain and want a public IPv4 address.

    From a provider's point of view, it does make sense.


    ... Doesanyoneknowhowmuchitcoststogetaspacebarrepaired?
    --- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49
    * Origin: Freeway BBS - freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Björn Felten on Tue Apr 5 08:29:00 2016
    Bjrn Felten wrote to Michiel van der Vlist <=-

    MvdV> Only the CPE and the gateway to the IPv4 internet need stuff to
    MvdV> tunnel/detunnel the IPv4 packets.

    True. Unfortunately it also means that two IPv4 hosts can not
    connect. A real problem for all the fido systems that still haven't
    seen the light, I'd say.

    Well, same goes for carrier grade NAT, except at least DS-Lite gives you a public IPv6 address (or subnet).

    The time is running out...

    Yeah. Has anyone done any stats on how many Fido systems there are in the nodelist these days? Would be telling what proportion of the total that the 42 known IPv6 capable nodes represents.


    ... The number you have dailed...Nine-one-one...has been changed.
    --- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49
    * Origin: Freeway BBS - freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Tony Langdon on Tue Apr 5 01:06:33 2016
    Would be telling what proportion of the total that the 42
    known IPv6 capable nodes represents.

    That seems like a task that not even our trusted nodelist checker Kees can accomplish.

    But at least we know that the entire(?) FidoWeb is already IPv6 ready, so we have a sturdy mail backbone up, ready and working since a long time ago. 8-)



    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Tony Langdon on Tue Apr 5 01:14:45 2016
    Would be telling what proportion of the total that the 42
    known IPv6 capable nodes represents.

    I spoke too soon in my previous comment. I just remembered that the only FidoWeb nod in zone 3 is not IPv6 ready. But you are. How about connecting to a dozen nodes with every echo there is?

    Are you prepared to handle tons of dupes (typically 100% of the total traffic)? If so we would very much want to welcome you as a FW node. If not we are only IPv6 ready in zone 1 and 2.





    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Björn Felten on Tue Apr 5 01:08:43 2016
    Hello Bjrn,

    On Monday April 04 2016 23:31, you wrote to me:

    True. Unfortunately it also means that two IPv4 hosts can not
    connect. A real problem for all the fido systems that still haven't
    seen the light, I'd say.

    The time is running out...

    Indeed, it is. But what we are critizising the ISPs for, also applies to the Fidonet sysops. They can't claim they didn't see it coming. There has been enough publicity. In Fidonews and other publications. The software to run FOTIPv6 has been available for quit some time. And if the ISP does not offer IPv6, one can run a tunnel. Installing a tunnel should be within the capabalities of every Fidonet sysop. So when they are left behind because they are saddled with a crippled IPv4 connection and have no IPv6, they only have themselves to blame.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20130111
    * Origin: 2001:470:1f15:1117::1 (2:280/5555)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Björn Felten on Tue Apr 5 01:25:55 2016
    Hello Bjrn,

    On Tuesday April 05 2016 01:14, you wrote to Tony Langdon:

    Would be telling what proportion of the total that the 42
    known IPv6 capable nodes represents.

    I spoke too soon in my previous comment. I just remembered that the only FidoWeb nod in zone 3 is not IPv6 ready.

    Is that so? There are five Z3 sysops in the IPv6 list. I am not sure which one of those qualify as Fidoweb nodes, but I am pretty sure it is more than one.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20130111
    * Origin: 2001:470:1f15:1117::1 (2:280/5555)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Michiel van der Vlist on Tue Apr 5 01:50:45 2016
    The time is running out...

    MvdV> Indeed, it is. But what we are critizising the ISPs for, also applies to
    MvdV> the Fidonet sysops.

    That's exactly what I was thinking of.

    Some sysops take this seriously and have taken the proper precautions. Some are just sitting on their thumbs and are quite happy to cry for a moderator election somewhere. 8-)

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Michiel van der Vlist on Tue Apr 5 01:53:18 2016
    MvdV> Is that so? There are five Z3 sysops in the IPv6 list. I am not sure
    MvdV> which one of those qualify as Fidoweb nodes, but I am pretty sure it is
    MvdV> more than one.

    Yeah, well, if that is so I'm not connected to any of them. But then again the FidoWeb works even with just a few connections, not necessarily mine -- even if I always want one. 8-)

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Björn Felten on Tue Apr 5 11:33:00 2016
    Bjrn Felten wrote to Tony Langdon <=-

    Would be telling what proportion of the total that the 42
    known IPv6 capable nodes represents.

    That seems like a task that not even our trusted nodelist checker
    Kees can accomplish.

    Hmm, in the old days, the nodelist compiler would give us rough stats for that, but don't need a compiler these days. :)

    But at least we know that the entire(?) FidoWeb is already IPv6
    ready, so we have a sturdy mail backbone up, ready and working since a long time ago. 8-)

    Hmm, tongue in cheek? ;)


    ... Chemists do it on the bench!
    --- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49
    * Origin: Freeway BBS - freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Björn Felten on Tue Apr 5 11:34:00 2016
    Bjrn Felten wrote to Tony Langdon <=-

    I spoke too soon in my previous comment. I just remembered that the only FidoWeb nod in zone 3 is not IPv6 ready. But you are. How about connecting to a dozen nodes with every echo there is?

    So, what is the Fidoweb? Obviously some specialised part of Fidonet.


    ... What do you mean off topic??!!! There's a topic?
    --- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49
    * Origin: Freeway BBS - freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Michiel van der Vlist on Tue Apr 5 11:39:00 2016
    Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Bjrn Felten <=-

    Indeed, it is. But what we are critizising the ISPs for, also applies
    to the Fidonet sysops. They can't claim they didn't see it coming.
    There has been enough publicity. In Fidonews and other publications.
    The software to run FOTIPv6 has been available for quit some time. And
    if the ISP does not offer IPv6, one can run a tunnel. Installing a
    tunnel should be within the capabalities of every Fidonet sysop. So
    when they are left behind because they are saddled with a crippled IPv4 connection and have no IPv6, they only have themselves to blame.

    I do agree about running a tunnel. I've run tunnels on and off since around 2000, when it was _much_ harder to do so, as it required compiling Linux kernels by hand, experimental patches from Microsoft for Windows 2000, and some odd configuration to work around various bugs in those early implementations (like the default route not working on Linux!).


    ... Brain: the apparatus with which we think we think
    --- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49
    * Origin: Freeway BBS - freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Tony Langdon on Tue Apr 5 04:15:27 2016
    Hmm, tongue in cheek? ;)

    My old trusted friends down under knows that I always have my tongue there. Just ask David or Paul if you don't believe me... 8-)

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Björn Felten on Tue Apr 5 12:28:00 2016
    Bjrn Felten wrote to Tony Langdon <=-

    Hmm, tongue in cheek? ;)

    My old trusted friends down under knows that I always have my tongue there. Just ask David or Paul if you don't believe me... 8-)

    Hahaha fair enough. :D


    ... PCDOS&MSDOS&CP/M&WINDOWSI'LLFIDDLEWITHOS/2WOULDN'TYOU
    --- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49
    * Origin: Freeway BBS - freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Tony Langdon on Tue Apr 5 10:53:50 2016
    Hello Tony,

    On Tuesday April 05 2016 11:34, you wrote to Bjrn Felten:

    So, what is the Fidoweb? Obviously some specialised part of Fidonet.

    That is a subject that is off-topic in this area.

    For info see my article in Fidonews titled:

    Notes on a topless echomail distribution system.

    Late September or beginning of October 2012.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20130111
    * Origin: 2001:470:1f15:1117::1 (2:280/5555)
  • From Wilfred van Velzen@2:280/464 to Michiel van der Vlist on Tue Apr 5 11:12:29 2016
    Hi Michiel,

    On 2016-04-05 10:53:50, you wrote to Tony Langdon:

    So, what is the Fidoweb? Obviously some specialised part of Fidonet.

    MvdV> That is a subject that is off-topic in this area.

    MvdV> For info see my article in Fidonews titled:

    MvdV> Notes on a topless echomail distribution system.

    MvdV> Late September or beginning of October 2012.

    And don't forget to mention the direct link on your own website! ;)

    http://vlist.org/downloads/fidonews/nads.txt

    Bye, Wilfred.

    --- FMail-W32 1.69.22.178-B20160331
    * Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)
  • From Kees van Eeten@2:280/5003.4 to Bj÷rn Felten on Tue Apr 5 11:36:22 2016
    Hello Bjrn!

    Did I hear my name being called.

    05 Apr 16 01:06, you wrote to Tony Langdon:


    Would be telling what proportion of the total that the 42
    known IPv6 capable nodes represents.

    That seems like a task that not even our trusted nodelist checker Kees can accomplish.

    There is some form of statistics, but as always you have to know how it
    is assembled.

    These numbers are based on dividual nodelines, AKA's are not moved into one
    value. Pots only nodes and E-mail transports are not included, so in essence
    the this is only about Binkp capable systems, that publish hostnames or
    have their ip-address registered with binkp.net.

    For all hostnames the return of a dns query is separated is three groups.
    Group 1. No hostname found (NXdomain)
    Group 2. A IP4 address is returned but no IPv6 address
    Group 3. A IPv6 address is returned and possibly a IPv4 address.

    IP adresses listed in the nodelist are added to the second group.
    No attempt is made to verify if the systems are live.
    Below Group 1 is separated into Zones.

    Group 1 total Z1 Z2 Z3 Z4
    NXdomain 116 41 63 0 12

    Group 2 total Z1 Z2 Z3 Z4
    IPv4 Nodes - 878 260 589 17 12

    Group 3 total Z1 Z2 Z3 Z4
    IPv6 Nodes - 87 26 48 12 1

    Not all nodes with hostnames, that return IPv6 addresses support IPv6.
    A comparison with the list of IPv6 capable nodes in the Nodelist is a job
    for another day.

    Disclaimer:
    Nodes with Hostnames that only return an IP address during ZMH are
    included in Group 1.

    Kees

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5
    * Origin: As for me, all I know is that, I know nothing. (2:280/5003.4)
  • From Joe Delahaye@1:249/303 to Björn Felten on Tue Apr 5 10:49:09 2016
    Re: DS-Lite
    By: Bjrn Felten to Michiel van der Vlist on Tue Apr 05 2016 01:50:45

    That's exactly what I was thinking of.

    Some sysops take this seriously and have taken the proper precautions. Some are just sitting on their thumbs and are quite happy to cry for a moderator election somewhere. 8-)

    And some of us have both. There are many that will not have IPv6 for ages to come. It does not matter how much they may clamour for it, the ISP is just not interested. My former ISP could care less.
    --- SBBSecho 2.33-Win32
    * Origin: The Lions Den BBS, Trenton, On, CDN (1:249/303)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Joe Delahaye on Tue Apr 5 16:59:38 2016
    Hello Joe,

    On Tuesday April 05 2016 10:49, you wrote to Bjrn Felten:

    There are many that will not have IPv6 for ages to come. It does not matter how much they may clamour for it, the ISP is just not
    interested.

    As pointed out before, one does not have to wait for the ISP to support it. Setting up a tunnel should be within the capabilities of every Fidonet sysop.

    My former ISP could care less.

    Then the days of that ISP are numbered. My estimate is that within five years, IPv6 will be the dominant protocol on the Internet. Those who do not have IPv6 will miss out on certain things.

    You made the right choice.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20130111
    * Origin: 2001:470:1f15:1117::1 (2:280/5555)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Tony Langdon on Tue Apr 5 17:06:35 2016
    Hello Tony,

    On Tuesday April 05 2016 11:39, you wrote to me:

    I do agree about running a tunnel. I've run tunnels on and off since around 2000,

    That early? Wow, you really are an early adopter. ;-)

    when it was _much_ harder to do so, as it required compiling Linux
    kernels by hand, experimental patches from Microsoft for Windows 2000,
    and some odd configuration to work around various bugs in those early implementations (like the default route not working on Linux!).

    I am impressed. :)


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20130111
    * Origin: 2001:470:1f15:1117::1 (2:280/5555)
  • From Joe Delahaye@1:249/303 to Michiel van der Vlist on Tue Apr 5 12:27:50 2016
    Re: DS-Lite
    By: Michiel van der Vlist to Joe Delahaye on Tue Apr 05 2016 16:59:38

    There are many that will not have IPv6 for ages to come. It does
    not matter how much they may clamour for it, the ISP is just not
    interested.

    As pointed out before, one does not have to wait for the ISP to support it. Setting up a tunnel should be within the capabilities of every Fidonet sysop.

    But with tunnel brokers starting to shut down that service that looks rather bleak as well.

    My former ISP could care less.

    Then the days of that ISP are numbered. My estimate is that within five years, IPv6 will be the dominant protocol on the Internet. Those who do not have IPv6 will miss out on certain things.

    Since it is pretty much the largest ISP in this country, I dont think they will go away anytime soon. They and the other big two ISPs tend to control the market, and either surpress, or buy out startups. Even though I am no longer with them, I still have to use their lines, and switches, and they control how big a bandwidth I get or the speed at which I can transfer files.


    You made the right choice.
    --- SBBSecho 2.33-Win32
    * Origin: The Lions Den BBS, Trenton, On, CDN (1:249/303)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Joe Delahaye on Tue Apr 5 18:33:58 2016
    Hello Joe,

    On Tuesday April 05 2016 12:27, you wrote to me:

    As pointed out before, one does not have to wait for the ISP to
    support it. Setting up a tunnel should be within the capabilities
    of every Fidonet sysop.

    But with tunnel brokers starting to shut down that service that looks rather bleak as well.

    Oh, c'mon. There is just one tunnel broker, that MAY shut down. It is not the only fish in the sea. he.net comes to mind and they show no signs of quitting ant time soon. And there are others.

    Then the days of that ISP are numbered. My estimate is that
    within five years, IPv6 will be the dominant protocol on the
    Internet. Those who do not have IPv6 will miss out on certain
    things.

    Since it is pretty much the largest ISP in this country, I dont think
    they will go away anytime soon.

    Don't put any money on that. If they do not start with IPv6 soon, they will be out of the race within five years.

    They and the other big two ISPs tend to control the market, and either surpress, or buy out startups.

    Watch what happens when large parts of the Internet become unreacheable by their customers.

    Even though I am no longer with them, I still have to use their lines,
    and switches, and they control how big a bandwidth I get or the speed
    at which I can transfer files.

    Hmm.. Not so good. :(


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20130111
    * Origin: 2001:470:1f15:1117::1 (2:280/5555)
  • From Joe Delahaye@1:249/303 to Michiel van der Vlist on Tue Apr 5 16:27:14 2016
    Re: DS-Lite
    By: Michiel van der Vlist to Joe Delahaye on Tue Apr 05 2016 18:33:58

    But with tunnel brokers starting to shut down that service that
    looks rather bleak as well.

    Oh, c'mon. There is just one tunnel broker, that MAY shut down. It is not the only fish in the sea. he.net comes to mind and they show no signs of quitting ant time soon. And there are others.

    Yes, but once one starts, others tend to follow


    Since it is pretty much the largest ISP in this country, I dont
    think they will go away anytime soon.

    Don't put any money on that. If they do not start with IPv6 soon, they will be out of the race within five years.

    Maybe. They are at present trying to prevent ISPs like mine from being able to use the fibre Optics that they are laying. Their excuse is, if that is allowed (already the case as ordered by our regulatory agency), they will have to stop the Fibre optic stuff. I have no idea why, other then they want to control the market completely. I just read an article from CIRA of which I am a member, that Bell, prefers to feed from US exchange hubs, because it is more profit for them to have more hops, rather then one of the local Canadian hubs which would speed things up.


    They and the other big two ISPs tend to control the market, and
    either surpress, or buy out startups.

    Watch what happens when large parts of the Internet become unreacheable by their customers.

    I just wonder if there is some work around they can use.


    Even though I am no longer with them, I still have to use their
    lines, and switches, and they control how big a bandwidth I get or
    the speed at which I can transfer files.

    Hmm.. Not so good. :(
    --- SBBSecho 2.33-Win32
    * Origin: The Lions Den BBS, Trenton, On, CDN (1:249/303)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Michiel van der Vlist on Wed Apr 6 08:38:00 2016
    Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Tony Langdon <=-

    On Tuesday April 05 2016 11:34, you wrote to Bjrn Felten:

    So, what is the Fidoweb? Obviously some specialised part of Fidonet.

    That is a subject that is off-topic in this area.

    For info see my article in Fidonews titled:

    Notes on a topless echomail distribution system.

    Late September or beginning of October 2012.

    OK, seems to be something more here, if I can get around to finding an old issue of Fidonews, I will read it, but no guarantee (you're relying on my extremely dodgy short term memory here, so not really helpful. ;)


    ... What?! I'm missing Star Tre$#%$^ NO CARRIER
    --- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49
    * Origin: Freeway BBS - freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Michiel van der Vlist on Wed Apr 6 08:40:00 2016
    Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Tony Langdon <=-

    Hello Tony,

    On Tuesday April 05 2016 11:39, you wrote to me:

    I do agree about running a tunnel. I've run tunnels on and off since around 2000,

    That early? Wow, you really are an early adopter. ;-)

    Yep, I wanted to see what this "IPv6 thing" was. Wasn't any real practical use then, other than seeing if I could get the animated turtle on kame.net and other similar tests. But even back then, IPv6 basically worked (within limits of implementations).

    when it was _much_ harder to do so, as it required compiling Linux
    kernels by hand, experimental patches from Microsoft for Windows 2000,
    and some odd configuration to work around various bugs in those early implementations (like the default route not working on Linux!).

    I am impressed. :)

    Those were the fun days, kinda like the early days of the Internet, BBSing and packet radio, where you had to know your stuff and be prepared for a steep learning curve to get things working. There was satisfaction in pulling off a difficult technical challenge. :)


    ... hAS ANYONE SEEN MY cAPSLOCK KEY?
    --- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49
    * Origin: Freeway BBS - freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Kees van Eeten on Wed Apr 6 09:01:00 2016
    Kees van Eeten wrote to Bjrn Felten <=-

    IP adresses listed in the nodelist are added to the second group.
    No attempt is made to verify if the systems are live.
    Below Group 1 is separated into Zones.

    Group 1 total Z1 Z2 Z3 Z4
    NXdomain 116 41 63 0 12

    Group 2 total Z1 Z2 Z3 Z4
    IPv4 Nodes - 878 260 589 17 12

    Group 3 total Z1 Z2 Z3 Z4
    IPv6 Nodes - 87 26 48 12 1

    Not all nodes with hostnames, that return IPv6 addresses support IPv6.
    A comparison with the list of IPv6 capable nodes in the Nodelist is a job
    for another day.

    So, depending on how you analyse the stats, we're looking at maybe 4 - 9% of nodes have IPv6 capability. The lower bound is from the list of 42 nodes that gets posted regularly, the upper bound from your figures above, and given we're talking about rough figures here, I just used mental arithmetic to come up with those estimates. Was only looking at a ballpark figure. In any case, it is a small proportion of the total node population.


    ... OK Scotty, NOW! Detonate and energize! I mean.......
    --- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49
    * Origin: Freeway BBS - freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Tony Langdon on Wed Apr 6 02:16:49 2016
    Hello Tony,

    On Wednesday April 06 2016 08:38, you wrote to me:

    For info see my article in Fidonews titled:

    Notes on a topless echomail distribution system.

    Late September or beginning of October 2012.

    OK, seems to be something more here, if I can get around to finding an
    old issue of Fidonews, I will read it, but no guarantee (you're
    relying on my extremely dodgy short term memory here, so not really helpful. ;)

    http://vlist.org/downloads/fidonews/nads.txt


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20130111
    * Origin: 2001:470:1f15:1117::1 (2:280/5555)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Tony Langdon on Wed Apr 6 02:18:26 2016
    Hello Tony,

    On Wednesday April 06 2016 09:01, you wrote to Kees van Eeten:

    So, depending on how you analyse the stats, we're looking at maybe 4 -
    9% of nodes have IPv6 capability.

    Which compared to the global stats of IPv6 connectivity is not all that bad.

    OTOH, one would expect the fidonet community to be above avarage, given that they were pioneers in datacomm...


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20130111
    * Origin: 2001:470:1f15:1117::1 (2:280/5555)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Michiel van der Vlist on Wed Apr 6 10:49:00 2016
    Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Tony Langdon <=-

    http://vlist.org/downloads/fidonews/nads.txt

    Thanks. :)


    ... Click...click...click...Damn, out of taglines again!
    --- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49
    * Origin: Freeway BBS - freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Michiel van der Vlist on Wed Apr 6 10:52:00 2016
    Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Tony Langdon <=-

    Hello Tony,

    On Wednesday April 06 2016 09:01, you wrote to Kees van Eeten:

    So, depending on how you analyse the stats, we're looking at maybe 4 -
    9% of nodes have IPv6 capability.

    Which compared to the global stats of IPv6 connectivity is not all that bad.

    Does seem to be on a par with general IPv6 connectivity.

    OTOH, one would expect the fidonet community to be above avarage, given that they were pioneers in datacomm...

    Yes, and today, dominated by sysops, who should have a higher than average level of technical skill. :)


    ... All real programs contain errors.
    --- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49
    * Origin: Freeway BBS - freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)
  • From Richard Menedetter@2:310/31 to Michiel Van Der Vlist on Thu Apr 7 20:30:14 2016
    Hi Michiel!

    03 Apr 2016 23:24, from Michiel van der Vlist -> Richard Menedetter:

    I really do not understand why they do not throw in IPv6 in the
    mix ... But that is how it is :(
    I think I can understand it. They are actually thinking ahead. An IPv6 only network is less complicated than a dual stack network. And in the
    end hat is what we will end up with anyway. So why not go for an IPv6
    only core network and as a transtion mechanism offer IPv4 via a
    tunneling mechanism?

    Yeah ... maybe ;))

    But we want full dual stack. For now at least.
    Indeed!
    As my fellow countryman, ex fidonet sysop and IPv6 Guru Iljitsch van Beijnum remarked in his essays: the transition will be ugly... :-(

    And late ;)
    Wrote mythesis about mobile IPv6 in 2004 ...
    The IPv6 RFC was quit old even back then ...

    I am at UPC Austria ... this is a DS-Lite only area :(
    So let me ask you and think about this carefully: how much would it
    really hurt you to go DS-Lite? How much do you really need a public
    IPv4 address? If push comes to shove, how much would you be willing to
    pay for it?

    No IPv6 in the office, no IPv6 with many people, and most Fido nodes.

    I discussed that very point with the network architect of a big ISP, who was looking into PCP.
    I told him that offering IPv4 for 1 EUR/month makes much more sense ...
    I would be willing to pay that to get dual stack.
    PCP is a very braindead "solution" for DS-Lite port forwarding ...

    CU, Ricsi

    --- GoldED+/LNX
    * Origin: fido.ricsi.priv.at (2:310/31)
  • From Richard Menedetter@2:310/31 to Michiel Van Der Vlist on Thu Apr 7 20:38:18 2016
    Hi Michiel!

    04 Apr 2016 21:53, from Michiel van der Vlist -> Richard Menedetter:

    I have one at home (inet addr:44.143.24.52)
    It doesn't ping.

    https://hamnetdb.net/?m=as&q=44.143.24.52&as=-All-&tab=&osm=1

    It is only reachable via HAMNet.

    Most of them are allocated for HAMNet (eg. the above).
    But some are also routed to the "real" Internet (eg. some
    EchoLink Proxies in that range)
    If it is not routed on the public internet than it serves no purpose
    to use a public address, Might as well use address in one of the
    RFC1918 ranges.

    It was assigned for HAM usage.
    Many HAMs expose some/all of the IPs to Internet routing.

    Actually we are quit new to it.
    Installed BGP to get out subnet routed.

    I have a VPN to our club station OE1XAW: https://hamnetdb.net/?m=as&q=oe1xaw&as=64515&tab=&osm=1

    CU, Ricsi

    --- GoldED+/LNX
    * Origin: fido.ricsi.priv.at (2:310/31)
  • From Richard Menedetter@2:310/31 to Michiel Van Der Vlist on Thu Apr 7 20:42:54 2016
    Hi Michiel!

    04 Apr 2016 22:01, from Michiel van der Vlist -> Bjrn Felten:

    Actually, as a technology, DS-Lite has merits. It has the great
    advantage over dual stack that the core network can be IPv6 only. An
    IPv6 only network is much simpler than a dual stack network. So,easier
    to maintain, easier to debug and therefore cheaper.

    Just that they need to maintain the IPv4 backbone for the customers that have old CPEs like my bridged Ubee CPE.
    Or those that called the hotline and were configured for bridged IPv4.

    So they need to maintain it anyhow ...

    CU, Ricsi

    --- GoldED+/LNX
    * Origin: fido.ricsi.priv.at (2:310/31)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Richard Menedetter on Fri Apr 8 01:06:14 2016
    Hello Richard,

    On Thursday April 07 2016 20:42, you wrote to me:

    Actually, as a technology, DS-Lite has merits. It has the great
    advantage over dual stack that the core network can be IPv6 only.
    An IPv6 only network is much simpler than a dual stack network.
    So,easier to maintain, easier to debug and therefore cheaper.

    Just that they need to maintain the IPv4 backbone for the customers
    that have old CPEs like my bridged Ubee CPE.

    Or my Motorola Surfboard...

    Or those that called the hotline and were configured for bridged
    IPv4.

    So they need to maintain it anyhow ...

    For now.

    CPEs don't last forever however and in the years to come, that old stuff will be replaced. Depending on how agressive the upgrade and replace policy, it that will take between an estimated three and six years before all CPEs are DS-Lite capable. And then they can pull the plug on the IPv4 core network.



    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20130111
    * Origin: 2001:470:1f15:1117::1 (2:280/5555)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Richard Menedetter on Fri Apr 8 01:22:04 2016
    Hello Richard,

    On Thursday April 07 2016 20:30, you wrote to me:

    As my fellow countryman, ex fidonet sysop and IPv6 Guru Iljitsch
    van Beijnum remarked in his essays: the transition will be
    ugly... :-(

    And late ;)
    Wrote mythesis about mobile IPv6 in 2004 ...

    That early? I think my interest in IPv6 war aroused in 2006 or 2007. But it tool a while before I started experimenting myself.

    So let me ask you and think about this carefully: how much would
    it really hurt you to go DS-Lite? How much do you really need a
    public IPv4 address? If push comes to shove, how much would you
    be willing to pay for it?

    No IPv6 in the office, no IPv6 with many people, and most Fido nodes.

    I discussed that very point with the network architect of a big ISP,
    who was looking into PCP. I told him that offering IPv4 for 1
    EUR/month makes much more sense ... I would be willing to pay that to
    get dual stack. PCP is a very braindead "solution" for DS-Lite port forwarding ...

    EUR 1 a month... Yes, I'd be prepared to pay that. For the next five years. At which point I expect to no longer need IPv4.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20130111
    * Origin: 2001:470:1f15:1117::1 (2:280/5555)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Michiel van der Vlist on Fri Apr 8 09:58:00 2016
    Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Richard Menedetter <=-

    That early? I think my interest in IPv6 war aroused in 2006 or 2007.
    But it tool a while before I started experimenting myself.

    My interest started around 2000, at which time I managed to get IPv6 working on my Linux 2.2.x kernel based router. Took a lot of compiling and various workaround for bugs and limitations in the Linux IPv6 stack of the day. One of the biggies was the default route not working. In those days, you had to add a route to 2000::/3, to reach the rest of the IPv6 Internet. I had a Windows 2000 box as well, which required an experimental Mictosoft patch to run IPv6. The patch did work reasonably well from memory.

    EUR 1 a month... Yes, I'd be prepared to pay that. For the next five years. At which point I expect to no longer need IPv4.

    Sounds a reasonable price to pay, in fact, on the cheap side. I expect to need IPv4 for at least 10 years, despite being an early adopter of IPv6, because of some of the applications which I run and don't expect to see updated for a long time.


    ... It beeped and said "Countdown initiated". Is that bad?
    --- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49
    * Origin: Freeway BBS - freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)
  • From Richard Menedetter@2:310/31 to Michiel Van Der Vlist on Fri Apr 8 13:06:46 2016
    Hi Michiel!

    08 Apr 2016 01:22, from Michiel van der Vlist -> Richard Menedetter:

    Wrote mythesis about mobile IPv6 in 2004 ...
    That early? I think my interest in IPv6 war aroused in 2006 or 2007.
    But it tool a while before I started experimenting myself.

    Was playing around with 6bone in 2001ish ...

    Here is the abstract for my thesis: http://pub-et.tuwien.ac.at/showentry.php?ID=110024&lang=2

    EUR 1 a month... Yes, I'd be prepared to pay that.
    For the next five years. At which point I expect to no longer need
    IPv4.

    Or for however long you deem it useful ;)

    CU, Ricsi

    --- GoldED+/LNX
    * Origin: fido.ricsi.priv.at (2:310/31)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Richard Menedetter on Sat Apr 9 08:13:00 2016
    Richard Menedetter wrote to Michiel Van Der Vlist <=-

    Was playing around with 6bone in 2001ish ...

    That's where I started playing too. My first tunnel was on the 6bone. :)


    ... For people who like peace & quiet - A phoneless cord!
    --- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49
    * Origin: Freeway BBS - freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Tony Langdon on Sun Apr 10 23:55:08 2016
    Hello Tony,

    On Friday April 08 2016 09:58, you wrote to me:

    EUR 1 a month... Yes, I'd be prepared to pay that. For the next
    five years. At which point I expect to no longer need IPv4.

    Sounds a reasonable price to pay, in fact, on the cheap side.

    I might be persuaded to pay a bit more... ;-)

    I expect to need IPv4 for at least 10 years, despite being an early adopter of IPv6, because of some of the applications which I run and
    don't expect to see updated for a long time.

    I run two servers. A http server and a binkp server. The http server is not all that important to me. It would not affect me very much if it was IPv6 only. Some 25% of incoming on the website is IPv6.

    As for Fidonet. Hard to predict the future. Can one successfully participate in Fidonet with an INO4 node in five years? Yes, I expect so. Considering that even today it would be possible with some inconvienence.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20130111
    * Origin: 2001:470:1f15:1117::1 (2:280/5555)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Richard Menedetter on Mon Apr 11 00:13:08 2016
    Hello Richard,

    On Friday April 08 2016 13:06, you wrote to me:

    Was playing around with 6bone in 2001ish ...

    Here is the abstract for my thesis: http://pub-et.tuwien.ac.at/showentry.php?ID=110024&lang=2

    Thanks. I will read it on the next rainy day.. ;-)

    EUR 1 a month... Yes, I'd be prepared to pay that.
    For the next five years. At which point I expect to no longer
    need IPv4.

    Or for however long you deem it useful ;)

    Well, I suppose I can afford EUR 1 a month for the second five year period if needed. But I realy expect not to need it any more by then.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20130111
    * Origin: 2001:470:1f15:1117::1 (2:280/5555)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Richard Menedetter on Mon Apr 11 00:37:42 2016
    Hello Richard,

    Monday April 11 2016 00:13, I wrote to you:

    Well, I suppose I can afford EUR 1 a month for the second five year
    period if needed. But I realy expect not to need it any more by then.

    In five years there will be four kinds of Fidonet nodes. When I have a CGNAT IPv4 adress...

    1) IPv6 only nodes. I can have full connectivity with them via IPv6.

    2) Dual stack nodes. I can have full connectivity with them via IPv6.

    3) DS-Lite nodes. I can have full connectivity with them via IPv6.

    4) IPv4 only nodes. I can have one way connetivity. I can connect to them but
    they can not connect to me, they have to route mail to me.

    I expect that in April 2021, the IPv4 only nodes will be in the same position as the POTS only nodes in 2016. I no longer support POTS. I do not feel impaired.


    Cheers, Michiel

    -+- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20130111



    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20130111
    * Origin: 2001:470:1f15:1117::1 (2:280/5555)
  • From David Drummond@3:640/305 to Michiel van der Vlist on Mon Apr 11 13:01:37 2016
    On 11/04/2016 8:37 AM, Michiel van der Vlist -> Richard Menedetter wrote:

    MvdV> 4) IPv4 only nodes. I can have one way connetivity. I can connect to
    MvdV> them but they can not connect to me, they have to route mail to me.

    Having mail routed to you is not that arduous.

    --

    Regards
    David

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
    * Origin: Cleveland QLD AUS (3:640/305)
  • From Richard Menedetter@2:310/31 to Michiel Van Der Vlist on Mon Apr 11 09:11:46 2016
    Hi Michiel!

    11 Apr 2016 00:13, from Michiel van der Vlist -> Richard Menedetter:

    Here is the abstract for my thesis:
    http://pub-et.tuwien.ac.at/showentry.php?ID=110024&lang=2
    Thanks. I will read it on the next rainy day.. ;-)

    It is just the abstract.
    I have the PDF version of the LaTeX document lying here around.
    I can send it to you, but it is definitely nothing revolutionary, and probably already outdated ;)

    CU, Ricsi

    --- GoldED+/LNX
    * Origin: Don't cry over spilt milk (2:310/31)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to All on Mon Aug 7 14:11:55 2017
    Hello All,

    It has now been confirmed: My ISP, Ziggo now puts all new customers on DS-Lite. Presumably one can still get IPv4 only with a public address on request, but not Dual Stack.

    I still have Dual Stack. I foresee it won't last forever...


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: he.net certified sage (2:280/5555)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Michiel van der Vlist on Tue Aug 8 09:06:00 2017
    Michiel van der Vlist wrote to All <=-

    It has now been confirmed: My ISP, Ziggo now puts all new customers on DS-Lite. Presumably one can still get IPv4 only with a public address
    on request, but not Dual Stack.

    I still have Dual Stack. I foresee it won't last forever...

    We should plan for that. Having as many *Cs and hubs as possible running dual stack will help, at least that will allow routed netmail as worst case
    cenario.


    ... Mail waiting, must have said something real stupid.
    --- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49
    * Origin: Freeway BBS - freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)
  • From Wilfred van Velzen@2:280/464 to Michiel van der Vlist on Tue Aug 8 08:56:09 2017
    Hi Michiel,

    On 2017-08-07 14:11:55, you wrote to All:

    MvdV> It has now been confirmed: My ISP, Ziggo now puts all new customers
    MvdV> on DS-Lite. Presumably one can still get IPv4 only with a public
    MvdV> address on request, but not Dual Stack.

    MvdV> I still have Dual Stack. I foresee it won't last forever...

    If you have to choose between DS-lite and IPv4 only, what will it be? ;)

    Bye, Wilfred.

    --- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.17-B20170711
    * Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Wilfred van Velzen on Tue Aug 8 09:20:29 2017
    Hello Wilfred,

    On Tuesday August 08 2017 08:56, you wrote to me:

    Hi Michiel,

    On 2017-08-07 14:11:55, you wrote to All:

    MvdV>> I still have Dual Stack. I foresee it won't last forever...

    If you have to choose between DS-lite and IPv4 only, what will it be?
    ;)

    DS-Lite


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: he.net certified sage (2:280/5555)
  • From Wilfred van Velzen@2:280/464 to Michiel van der Vlist on Tue Aug 8 09:53:35 2017
    Hi Michiel,

    On 2017-08-08 09:20:29, you wrote to me:

    If you have to choose between DS-lite and IPv4 only, what will it be?

    MvdV> DS-Lite

    Right now I would probably choose IPv4 (if it was a static address). I'm running more servers (www, mail) than just binkp.

    Bye, Wilfred.

    --- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.17-B20170711
    * Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Wilfred van Velzen on Tue Aug 8 10:30:58 2017
    Hello Wilfred,

    On Tuesday August 08 2017 09:53, you wrote to me:

    If you have to choose between DS-lite and IPv4 only, what will
    it be?

    MvdV>> DS-Lite

    Right now I would probably choose IPv4 (if it was a static address).
    I'm running more servers (www, mail) than just binkp.

    Try connecting to my binkp server at de8.portmap64.net.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: he.net certified sage (2:280/5555)
  • From Wilfred van Velzen@2:280/464 to Michiel van der Vlist on Tue Aug 8 11:33:41 2017
    Hi Michiel,

    On 2017-08-08 10:30:58, you wrote to me:

    Right now I would probably choose IPv4 (if it was a static address).
    I'm running more servers (www, mail) than just binkp.

    MvdV> Try connecting to my binkp server at de8.portmap64.net.

    # telnet de8.portmap64.net binkp
    Trying 84.200.67.208...
    Connected to de8.portmap64.net.

    ▒.OPT CRAM-MD5-c48a96e544fb4a3c5aca5faa4be033ee▒SYS Blijf Tonijn▒ZYZ Michiel van der Vlist▒LOC Driebergen, NL▒0NDL CM,MO,IBN:fido.vlist.eu,RPK,NPK,ENC,NC,PING▒%TIME Tue, 8 Aug 2017 11:23:11 +0200▒"VER binkd/1.1a-95/Win32 binkp/1.1▒2 2:280/5555@fidonet 2:2/20@fidonet 2:28/0@fidonet

    Ok, that works (for now). But it depends on a (free?) service provided by a third party. And has some limitations.

    If you have no choice, it is (very) usefull. But I don't think I would prefer it over a static IPv4 address right now.


    Bye, Wilfred.

    --- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.17-B20170711
    * Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Wilfred van Velzen on Tue Aug 8 11:43:57 2017
    Hello Wilfred,

    On Tuesday August 08 2017 11:33, you wrote to me:

    MvdV>> Try connecting to my binkp server at de8.portmap64.net.

    # telnet de8.portmap64.net binkp
    Trying 84.200.67.208...
    Connected to de8.portmap64.net.

    ߙ.OPT CRAM-MD5-c48a96e544fb4a3c5aca5faa4be033eeߙSYS Blijf
    TonijnߙZYZ Michiel van der VlistߙLOC Driebergen, NLߙ0NDL CM,MO,IBN:fido.vlist.eu,RPK,NPK,ENC,NC,PINGߙ%TIME Tue, 8 Aug 2017 11:23:11 +0200ߙ"VER binkd/1.1a-95/Win32 binkp/1.1ߙ2
    2:280/5555@fidonet 2:2/20@fidonet 2:28/0@fidonet

    - 08 Aug 11:23:11 [2036] incoming from 2001:1608:10:199:a::208 (60814) + 08 Aug 11:23:11 [2568] Error in getnameinfo(): Der angeforderte Name ist gl + 08 Aug 11:23:11 [2568] incoming session with 2001:1608:10:199:a::208 ? 08 Aug 11:23:42 [2568] recv: connection closed by foreign host + 08 Aug 11:23:42 [2568] done (?, failed, S/R: 0/0 (0/0 bytes))
    08 Aug 11:23:42 [2568] session closed, quitting...

    Ok, that works (for now). But it depends on a (free?) service provided
    by a third party. And has some limitations.

    Yes, it works. Thanks for testing. No, it is not free. Only the first fifty days are free after that it is EUR 5/year for 12 ports.

    Yes, it has some limitations. But I think it will work for me.

    Depending on a third party - free or paid - is never the optimum solution, but if one chooses IPv4 only, one has to rely on a third party like he.net for IPv6. IPv6 is the future, so in that case I prefer native IPv6 and IPv4 via a third party instead of the other way around.

    If you have no choice, it is (very) usefull.

    I expect many people will have no choice in the not too distant foreseeable future. Even you with your geek friendly ISP may have no choice some day.

    But I don't think I would prefer it over a static IPv4 address right
    now.

    They offer a dedicated static IPv4 too. For a fee.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: he.net certified sage (2:280/5555)
  • From Markus Reschke@2:240/1661 to Wilfred van Velzen on Tue Aug 8 11:42:06 2017
    Hi Wilfred!

    Aug 08 11:33 2017, Wilfred van Velzen wrote to Michiel van der Vlist:

    Ok, that works (for now). But it depends on a (free?) service
    provided by a third party. And has some limitations.

    You could rent an inexpensive vserver and do that (and much more) yourself.

    ciao,
    Markus

    ---
    * Origin: *** theca tabellaria *** (2:240/1661)
  • From Wilfred van Velzen@2:280/464 to Michiel van der Vlist on Tue Aug 8 12:11:01 2017
    Hi Michiel,

    On 2017-08-08 11:43:57, you wrote to me:

    MvdV> Yes, it works. Thanks for testing. No, it is not free. Only the
    MvdV> first fifty days are free after that it is EUR 5/year for 12 ports.

    That wouldn't be a show stopper. ;)

    MvdV> Yes, it has some limitations. But I think it will work for me.

    Untill they find it's not profitable and quit the service or make the prices a lot higher. ;)

    MvdV> Depending on a third party - free or paid - is never the optimum
    MvdV> solution, but if one chooses IPv4 only, one has to rely on a third
    MvdV> party like he.net for IPv6. IPv6 is the future, so in that case I
    MvdV> prefer native IPv6 and IPv4 via a third party instead of the other
    MvdV> way around.

    Maybe in the future, right now I wouldn't absolutely need IPv6. I think I can do without it.

    If you have no choice, it is (very) usefull.

    MvdV> I expect many people will have no choice in the not too distant foreseeable
    MvdV> future. Even you with your geek friendly ISP may have no choice some day.

    They'll try to prevent that, because that will cost them customers. Their "geek friendly" image is how they distinquish themselfs from the others. If they don't have that, there are probably cheeper ones that provide the same product and service level.

    But I don't think I would prefer it over a static IPv4 address right
    now.

    MvdV> They offer a dedicated static IPv4 too. For a fee.

    Of course. ;)

    Bye, Wilfred.

    --- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.17-B20170711
    * Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)
  • From Wilfred van Velzen@2:280/464 to Markus Reschke on Tue Aug 8 12:52:43 2017
    Hi Markus,

    On 2017-08-08 11:42:06, you wrote to me:

    Ok, that works (for now). But it depends on a (free?) service
    provided by a third party. And has some limitations.

    You could rent an inexpensive vserver and do that (and much more) yourself.

    That would probably be a more likely choice for me, because I have the experience to do that...

    Bye, Wilfred.

    --- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.17-B20170711
    * Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Wilfred van Velzen on Tue Aug 8 12:58:12 2017
    Hello Wilfred,

    On Tuesday August 08 2017 12:11, you wrote to me:

    MvdV>> Yes, it works. Thanks for testing. No, it is not free. Only the
    MvdV>> first fifty days are free after that it is EUR 5/year for 12
    MvdV>> ports.

    That wouldn't be a show stopper. ;)

    Maybe it is my German, but I am a bit confused about wether it is EUR 5/year per port or EUR 5 for 12 ports.

    MvdV>> Yes, it has some limitations. But I think it will work for me.

    Untill they find it's not profitable and quit the service or make the prices a lot higher. ;)

    We will cross that bridge when we get to it. They offer other services as well and this costs them almost nothing once they have it set up. I now have a one to one port mapping, but my guess is that I am lucky because no one else asked for port 24554. They can serve a lot of customers with one IPv4 number.

    My guess is the EUR 5/year is just a teaser to get customers in the shop. I do not expect a substantial raise in price in the near future.

    MvdV>> in that case I prefer native IPv6 and IPv4 via a third party
    MvdV>> instead of the other way around.

    Maybe in the future, right now I wouldn't absolutely need IPv6. I
    think I can do without it.

    H where is that pioneer spirit?

    MvdV>> Even you with your geek friendly ISP may have no choice some day.

    They'll try to prevent that, because that will cost them customers.

    There may come a day that they have no choice...

    Their "geek friendly" image is how they distinquish themselfs from the others.

    Sure. But they are no longer an independant company. The share holders of the mother company may some day decide that "geek friendly" is not profitable enough.

    My once geek friendly ISP, hccnet, did not survive being eaten by KPN...

    If they don't have that, there are probably cheeper ones that provide
    the same product and service level.

    Probably...

    MvdV>> They offer a dedicated static IPv4 too. For a fee.

    Of course. ;)

    Let's hope that by the time you can't have a fixed IPv4 addres from your present ISP any more, it won't matter.

    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: he.net certified sage (2:280/5555)
  • From Wilfred van Velzen@2:280/464 to Michiel van der Vlist on Tue Aug 8 13:57:22 2017
    Hi Michiel,

    On 2017-08-08 12:58:12, you wrote to me:

    MvdV> Maybe it is my German, but I am a bit confused about wether it is
    MvdV> EUR 5/year per port or EUR 5 for 12 ports.

    (They have an English version of their website too, but I didn't check if that also includes their price list.)

    Well you want a port for your webserver too. So maybe it's 10/y. Still not too expensive.

    MvdV> My guess is the EUR 5/year is just a teaser to get customers in the
    MvdV> shop. I do not expect a substantial raise in price in the near
    MvdV> future.

    We'll see...

    Maybe in the future, right now I wouldn't absolutely need IPv6. I
    think I can do without it.

    MvdV> H where is that pioneer spirit?

    I'll do the pioneering as long as it's possible. That doesn't mean I absolutely need IPv6. It's nice to have and do the pioneering, but it isn't essential right now. ;)

    MvdV>>> Even you with your geek friendly ISP may have no choice some day.

    They'll try to prevent that, because that will cost them customers.

    MvdV> There may come a day that they have no choice...

    I highly doubt that...

    Their "geek friendly" image is how they distinquish themselfs from
    the others.

    MvdV> Sure. But they are no longer an independant company. The share holders of
    MvdV> the mother company may some day decide that "geek friendly" is not
    MvdV> profitable enough.

    Then they will fold up the business all together, or sell it to someone else. It's still an independent "daughter".

    MvdV> My once geek friendly ISP, hccnet, did not survive being eaten by
    MvdV> KPN...

    It was probably smaller...


    Bye, Wilfred.

    --- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.17-B20170711
    * Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)
  • From Andrew Leary@1:320/219 to Michiel van der Vlist on Tue Aug 8 08:12:32 2017
    Hello Michiel!

    08 Aug 17 10:30, you wrote to Wilfred van Velzen:

    Right now I would probably choose IPv4 (if it was a static
    address). I'm running more servers (www, mail) than just binkp.

    Try connecting to my binkp server at de8.portmap64.net.

    It's not especially surprising to see such services appearing.

    Andrew

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: Phoenix BBS * phoenix.bnbbbs.net (1:320/219)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Tony Langdon on Tue Aug 8 14:30:22 2017
    Hello Tony,

    On Tuesday August 08 2017 09:06, you wrote to me:

    I still have Dual Stack. I foresee it won't last forever...

    We should plan for that. Having as many *Cs and hubs as possible
    running dual stack will help, at least that will allow routed netmail
    as worst case cenario.

    I don't know what "we" can do any more than we are already doing... trying to promote IPv6 in Fidonet...



    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: he.net certified sage (2:280/5555)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Wilfred van Velzen on Tue Aug 8 14:38:36 2017
    Hello Wilfred,

    On Tuesday August 08 2017 13:57, you wrote to me:

    Well you want a port for your webserver too. So maybe it's 10/y. Still
    not too expensive.

    My webserver is not all that important any more. OTOH EUR 10/year is no show stopper either.

    MvdV>> There may come a day that they have no choice...

    I highly doubt that...

    They will run out of IPv4 one day...
    [..]
    Then they will fold up the business all together, or sell it to
    someone else. It's still an independent "daughter".

    There is no such thing as an "independant daughter".

    MvdV>> My once geek friendly ISP, hccnet, did not survive being eaten
    MvdV>> by KPN...

    It was probably smaller...

    Yes, I think it was.

    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: he.net certified sage (2:280/5555)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Andrew Leary on Tue Aug 8 14:44:55 2017
    Hello Andrew,

    On Tuesday August 08 2017 08:12, you wrote to me:

    Try connecting to my binkp server at de8.portmap64.net.

    It's not especially surprising to see such services appearing.

    Indeed, it was to be expected. This portmapper of theirs is real easy to configure. Much easier than setting up a VPN or a fully fledged tunnel. I think it is a good solution if you only need one or a few ports.

    Like for running a binkp server...


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: he.net certified sage (2:280/5555)
  • From Wilfred van Velzen@2:280/464 to Michiel van der Vlist on Tue Aug 8 15:18:52 2017
    Hi Michiel,

    On 2017-08-08 14:38:36, you wrote to me:

    MvdV>>> There may come a day that they have no choice...

    I highly doubt that...

    MvdV> They will run out of IPv4 one day...

    Maybe, I don't know how much they have left, and how much bigger they have to grow to run out.

    And if they do, there will probably be a choice just for new customers. I don't think they will take it away from existing customers.

    Then they will fold up the business all together, or sell it to
    someone else. It's still an independent "daughter".

    MvdV> There is no such thing as an "independant daughter".

    That's what they call it...

    Bye, Wilfred.

    --- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.17-B20170711
    * Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)
  • From Kees van Eeten@2:280/5003.4 to Wilfred van Velzen on Tue Aug 8 15:40:30 2017
    Hello Wilfred!

    08 Aug 17 12:52, you wrote to Markus Reschke:

    Ok, that works (for now). But it depends on a (free?) service
    provided by a third party. And has some limitations.

    You could rent an inexpensive vserver and do that (and much more)
    yourself.

    That would probably be a more likely choice for me, because I have the experience to do that...

    That would most probably be my choice as well. It would be a safe place to run
    a Fido server. Only Pots would then be a thing of the past, but you
    probably don't care.

    Kees

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5
    * Origin: As for me, all I know is that, I know nothing. (2:280/5003.4)
  • From Kees van Eeten@2:280/5003.4 to Michiel van der Vlist on Tue Aug 8 15:24:18 2017
    Hello Michiel!

    08 Aug 17 12:58, you wrote to Wilfred van Velzen:

    MvdV> Sure. But they are no longer an independant company. The share holders
    MvdV> of the mother company may some day decide that "geek friendly" is not
    MvdV> profitable enough.

    MvdV> My once geek friendly ISP, hccnet, did not survive being eaten by KPN...

    It was not eaten by KPN, there were some unlucky decisions made by
    management of HCC. In the end it was a better solution to sell the business
    to the geek friendly daughter company of KPN. I am still glad they did as in
    the end the first concept was unsustainable.

    Kees

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5
    * Origin: As for me, all I know is that, I know nothing. (2:280/5003.4)
  • From Wilfred van Velzen@2:280/464 to Kees van Eeten on Tue Aug 8 16:24:06 2017
    Hi Kees,

    On 2017-08-08 15:40:30, you wrote to me:

    You could rent an inexpensive vserver and do that (and much more)
    yourself.

    That would probably be a more likely choice for me, because I have
    the experience to do that...

    That would most probably be my choice as well. It would be a safe
    place to run a Fido server.

    Or use it to forward binkp connections... But running your fidosystem in it makes sense too...

    Only Pots would then be a thing of the past, but you probably don't
    care.

    I don't care, indeed. And you shouldn't either. It would be a good incentive for Henri, to finally install binkd! ;)

    Bye, Wilfred.

    --- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.17-B20170711
    * Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)
  • From Ingo Juergensmann@2:2452/413 to Kees van Eeten on Tue Aug 8 16:22:04 2017
    Hello Kees!

    08 Aug 17 15:40, you wrote to Wilfred van Velzen:

    You could rent an inexpensive vserver and do that (and much
    more) yourself.
    That would probably be a more likely choice for me, because I
    have the experience to do that...
    That would most probably be my choice as well. It would be a safe
    place to run a Fido server. Only Pots would then be a thing of the
    past, but you probably don't care.

    You can still connect your POTS to a modem and share your inbound/outbound via NFS/CIFS/GlusterFS/SSHFS/whatever. At least that's the way I want to connect my modem to my server.

    Ingo


    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5--b20170303
    * Origin: AmigaXess - back in FidoNet after 17 years (2:2452/413)
  • From Kees van Eeten@2:280/5003.4 to Ingo Juergensmann on Tue Aug 8 17:23:54 2017
    Hello Ingo!

    08 Aug 17 16:22, you wrote to me:

    That would most probably be my choice as well. It would be a safe
    place to run a Fido server. Only Pots would then be a thing of the
    past, but you probably don't care.

    You can still connect your POTS to a modem and share your inbound/outbound via NFS/CIFS/GlusterFS/SSHFS/whatever. At least that's the way I want to connect my modem to my server.

    Yes, that could be done. I have only one node that connects via pots, or
    actually I connect to the node. At the moment I connect once a day during
    toll free hours, as I do no like mail to remain to long in the queue.

    If I leave the connects to the node, there may be a week or more between
    connects. The node has promised to switch to IP "real soon now", some
    15 years ago. Move my node to a location with no pots, would be a good
    reason to fullfill the "real soon now" promise.

    It would also be a good reason to finally dump the parrallel mailer for
    POTS and IFC. The ip side of this mailer is constantly probed by portscanners.
    Kees

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5
    * Origin: As for me, all I know is that, I know nothing. (2:280/5003.4)
  • From Tommi Koivula@2:221/6.1 to Wilfred van Velzen on Tue Aug 8 20:00:37 2017
    Hello, Wilfred van Velzen.
    On 08/08/2017 8.56 you wrote:

    Hi Michiel, On 2017-08-07 14:11:55, you wrote to All:
    MvdV>> It has now been confirmed: My ISP, Ziggo now puts all new
    MvdV>> customers on DS-Lite. Presumably one can still get IPv4 only
    MvdV>> with a public address on request, but not Dual Stack. I still
    MvdV>> have Dual Stack. I foresee it won't last forever...
    If you have to choose between DS-lite and IPv4 only, what will it
    be? ;)

    Public ipv4, no doubt. ;)

    --
    Tommi
    --- Hotdoged/2.13.5/Android
    * Origin: Android 7.0; SM-G390F Build/NRD90M (2:221/6.1)
  • From Tommi Koivula@2:221/6.1 to Michiel van der Vlist on Tue Aug 8 20:05:29 2017
    Hello, Michiel van der Vlist.
    On 08/08/2017 10.30 you wrote:

    Hello Wilfred, On Tuesday August 08 2017 09:53, you wrote to me:
    If you have to choose between DS-lite and IPv4 only, what will
    it be?
    MvdV>>> DS-Lite
    Right now I would probably choose IPv4 (if it was a static
    address). I'm running more servers (www, mail) than just binkp.
    Try connecting to my binkp server at de8.portmap64.net.

    Quite nice... But I can do the same with my VPS. I have a virtual server with one static ipv4 and ipv6 address. And it costs only 3.70 per month.

    --
    Tommi
    --- Hotdoged/2.13.5/Android
    * Origin: Android 7.0; SM-G390F Build/NRD90M (2:221/6.1)
  • From Tommi Koivula@2:221/6.1 to Wilfred van Velzen on Tue Aug 8 20:19:09 2017
    Hello, Wilfred van Velzen.
    On 08/08/2017 16.24 you wrote:

    Hi Kees, On 2017-08-08 15:40:30, you wrote to me:
    You could rent an inexpensive vserver and do that (and much
    more) yourself.
    That would probably be a more likely choice for me, because I
    have the experience to do that...
    That would most probably be my choice as well. It would be a
    safe place to run a Fido server.
    Or use it to forward binkp connections... But running your
    fidosystem in it makes sense too...

    My 2:221/10 is a splitted node. The binkp server runs in VPS and it passes the mail bundles to my os/2 system to be processed. ;)

    --
    Tommi
    --- Hotdoged/2.13.5/Android
    * Origin: Android 7.0; SM-G390F Build/NRD90M (2:221/6.1)
  • From Nicholas Boel@1:154/10 to Michiel van der Vlist on Tue Aug 8 16:56:14 2017
    Hello Michiel,

    On Tue Aug 08 2017 11:43:56, Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Wilfred van Velzen:

    They offer a dedicated static IPv4 too. For a fee.

    It took my ISP this long to have native IPv6, so who knows when they're going to ditch IPv4. But when they do, I'll gladly go native IPv6 only without any complaints.

    Regards,
    Nick

    ... "Не знаю. Я здесь только работаю."
    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: thePharcyde_ distribution system (Wisconsin) (1:154/10)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Wilfred van Velzen on Tue Aug 8 23:54:57 2017
    Hello Wilfred,

    On Tuesday August 08 2017 15:18, you wrote to me:

    MvdV>> They will run out of IPv4 one day...

    Maybe, I don't know how much they have left, and how much bigger they
    have to grow to run out.

    Only insiders would know. It is "competition sensitive" information. Companies do not publish such information.

    And if they do, there will probably be a choice just for new
    customers. I don't think they will take it away from existing
    customers.

    Sounds reasonable...

    MvdV>> There is no such thing as an "independant daughter".

    That's what they call it...

    Calling it so does not make it so.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: he.net certified sage (2:280/5555)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Kees van Eeten on Wed Aug 9 00:18:14 2017
    Hello Kees,

    On Tuesday August 08 2017 15:40, you wrote to Wilfred van Velzen:

    That would most probably be my choice as well. It would be a safe
    place to run a Fido server. Only Pots would then be a thing of the
    past, but you probably don't care.

    Very few people would care I think. The one and only remaining POTS only node in R28 had fair warning that it would not last forever...


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: he.net certified sage (2:280/5555)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Kees van Eeten on Wed Aug 9 00:20:21 2017
    Hello Kees,

    On Tuesday August 08 2017 15:24, you wrote to me:

    MvdV>> My once geek friendly ISP, hccnet, did not survive being eaten
    MvdV>> by KPN...

    It was not eaten by KPN, there were some unlucky decisions made by management of HCC. In the end it was a better solution to sell the business to the geek friendly daughter company of KPN. I am still glad they did as in the end the first concept was unsustainable.

    "Unlucky management decisions".. why does that sound familiar? ;-)

    Thanks for the update.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: he.net certified sage (2:280/5555)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Ingo Juergensmann on Wed Aug 9 00:23:40 2017
    Hello Ingo,

    On Tuesday August 08 2017 16:22, you wrote to Kees van Eeten:

    You can still connect your POTS to a modem and share your
    inbound/outbound via NFS/CIFS/GlusterFS/SSHFS/whatever. At least
    that's the way I want to connect my modem to my server.

    I wouldn't bother if I were you. I kept my POTS running until some three years ago. I had no incoming POTS calls for four years, other than the test calls made by myself. So with the major system overhaul three years ago, I dropped POTS. Nobody complained.

    It is no longer worth the effort.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: he.net certified sage (2:280/5555)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Tommi Koivula on Wed Aug 9 00:27:56 2017
    Hello Tommi,

    On Tuesday August 08 2017 20:05, you wrote to me:

    Try connecting to my binkp server at de8.portmap64.net.

    Quite nice... But I can do the same with my VPS. I have a virtual
    server with one static ipv4 and ipv6 address. And it costs only 3.70
    per month.

    There is more than one road leading to Rome. Point is there are work arounds for thse who need IPv4 access to their system when their ISP puts them on DS-Lite.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: he.net certified sage (2:280/5555)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Nicholas Boel on Wed Aug 9 00:36:45 2017
    Hello Nicholas,

    On Tuesday August 08 2017 16:56, you wrote to me:

    They offer a dedicated static IPv4 too. For a fee.

    It took my ISP this long to have native IPv6, so who knows when
    they're going to ditch IPv4. But when they do, I'll gladly go native
    IPv6 only without any complaints.

    That's the spirit! ;-)


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: he.net certified sage (2:280/5555)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Michiel van der Vlist on Wed Aug 9 07:38:00 2017
    Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Tony Langdon <=-

    I don't know what "we" can do any more than we are already doing... trying to promote IPv6 in Fidonet...

    It's at least catching on with some software authors, it's now up to sysops to ensure they have an IPv6 service, and to configure accordingly.


    ... About the only thing on a farm that has an easy time is the dog.
    --- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49
    * Origin: Freeway BBS - freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Wilfred van Velzen on Wed Aug 9 08:14:00 2017
    -=> Wilfred van Velzen wrote to Michiel van der Vlist <=-

    Ok, that works (for now). But it depends on a (free?) service provided
    by a third party. And has some limitations.

    Well, my BBSs use a VPN tunnel to bring in IPv4s from another network. While I do have a static IPv4, I got the tunnel to allow multiple systems to run with public IPv4 addresses. All I would have to do if I was forced onto DS-Lite (highly unlikely in at least the next 5 years), is to change the tunnel endpoints to IPv6.


    ... Swallowing your pride seldom leads to indigestion.
    --- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49
    * Origin: Freeway BBS - freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Wilfred van Velzen on Wed Aug 9 08:17:00 2017
    Wilfred van Velzen wrote to Michiel van der Vlist <=-

    MvdV> I expect many people will have no choice in the not too distant foreseeable
    MvdV> future. Even you with your geek friendly ISP may have no choice some day.

    They'll try to prevent that, because that will cost them customers.
    Their "geek friendly" image is how they distinquish themselfs from the others. If they don't have that, there are probably cheeper ones that provide the same product and service level.

    Sounds a bit like my ISP - geek friendly, has a strong positive reputation among geeks (which is why I chose them), definitely not the cheapest - a little more expensive than most others, but definitely worth the premium. :)
    ... Do you want graphics? NO, and quit asking me!
    --- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49
    * Origin: Freeway BBS - freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Wilfred van Velzen on Wed Aug 9 08:18:00 2017
    Wilfred van Velzen wrote to Markus Reschke <=-

    You could rent an inexpensive vserver and do that (and much more)
    yourself.

    That would probably be a more likely choice for me, because I have the experience to do that...

    I thought about doing that, but I went with APANA, a club of fellow networking geeks who do the tunneling for a reasonable fee. :)


    ... Check out Elmer over there. Elmer as in Fudd.
    --- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49
    * Origin: Freeway BBS - freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Michiel van der Vlist on Wed Aug 9 08:22:00 2017
    Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Wilfred van Velzen <=-

    My once geek friendly ISP, hccnet, did not survive being eaten by
    KPN...

    Mine was boght out years ago, and then their new parent company were bought out by one of the big players in the national market, but all with no change to how they serve their customers. Not only are they geek friendly, but they have one of the highest satisfaction ratings in the country.

    If they don't have that, there are probably cheeper ones that provide
    the same product and service level.

    Probably...

    MvdV>> They offer a dedicated static IPv4 too. For a fee.

    Of course. ;)

    Let's hope that by the time you can't have a fixed IPv4 addres from
    your present ISP any more, it won't matter.

    Around here that could be a while off, still too many laggard ISPs here. :(


    ... I only touch base with reality on an as-needed basis!
    --- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49
    * Origin: Freeway BBS - freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Wilfred van Velzen on Wed Aug 9 08:24:00 2017
    Wilfred van Velzen wrote to Michiel van der Vlist <=-

    Then they will fold up the business all together, or sell it to someone else. It's still an independent "daughter".

    Your ISP sounds a lot like mine - now owned by a much larger company, but maintain their independent operating.


    ... I'm afraid I put too much BS into BBSing
    --- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49
    * Origin: Freeway BBS - freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Andrew Leary on Wed Aug 9 08:52:00 2017
    Andrew Leary wrote to Michiel van der Vlist <=-

    It's not especially surprising to see such services appearing.

    Indeed, and also good to see they have an IPv6 DDNS service too.


    ... This message uses 100% recycled electrons
    --- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49
    * Origin: Freeway BBS - freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Michiel van der Vlist on Wed Aug 9 08:53:00 2017
    Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Andrew Leary <=-

    Indeed, it was to be expected. This portmapper of theirs is real easy
    to configure. Much easier than setting up a VPN or a fully fledged tunnel. I think it is a good solution if you only need one or a few ports.

    Like for running a binkp server...

    Biggest issue is their key configuration page are only in German. :(


    ... "Farfrompoopin'" - German word for constipation.
    --- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49
    * Origin: Freeway BBS - freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)
  • From Wilfred van Velzen@2:280/464 to Tony Langdon on Wed Aug 9 09:28:17 2017
    Hi Tony,

    On 2017-08-09 08:17:00, you wrote to me:

    They'll try to prevent that, because that will cost them customers.
    Their "geek friendly" image is how they distinquish themselfs from
    the others. If they don't have that, there are probably cheeper ones
    that provide the same product and service level.

    Sounds a bit like my ISP - geek friendly, has a strong positive reputation among geeks (which is why I chose them), definitely not the cheapest - a little more expensive than most others, but definitely worth the premium. :)

    Exactly the same here... ;)

    Bye, Wilfred.

    --- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.17-B20170711
    * Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)
  • From Wilfred van Velzen@2:280/464 to Tony Langdon on Wed Aug 9 09:31:11 2017
    Hi Tony,

    On 2017-08-09 08:18:00, you wrote to me:

    That would probably be a more likely choice for me, because I have
    the experience to do that...

    I thought about doing that, but I went with APANA, a club of fellow networking geeks who do the tunneling for a reasonable fee. :)

    Searching for 'apana' in google only got me references to yoga. ;)
    apana.com is about water management.
    But I think apana.org is the one you mentioned... ;)

    Bye, Wilfred.

    --- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.17-B20170711
    * Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)
  • From Wilfred van Velzen@2:280/464 to Tony Langdon on Wed Aug 9 09:33:42 2017
    Hi Tony,

    On 2017-08-09 08:24:00, you wrote to me:

    Then they will fold up the business all together, or sell it to
    someone else. It's still an independent "daughter".

    Your ISP sounds a lot like mine - now owned by a much larger company, but maintain their independent operating.

    Same here...

    Bye, Wilfred.

    --- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.17-B20170711
    * Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Tony Langdon on Wed Aug 9 11:12:07 2017
    Hello Tony,

    On Wednesday August 09 2017 08:14, you wrote to Wilfred van Velzen:

    Well, my BBSs use a VPN tunnel to bring in IPv4s from another network. While I do have a static IPv4, I got the tunnel to allow multiple
    systems to run with public IPv4 addresses. All I would have to do if
    I was forced onto DS-Lite (highly unlikely in at least the next 5
    years), is to change the tunnel endpoints to IPv6.

    Making predictions is easy. Making predictions that come true is hard. Especially when these preductions concern the future.

    Five years is a long time in a rapidly changing world. I am stll optimistic. I still hope that it will take less than five years before we reach the tipping point when IPv6 will be the dominant protocol and IPv4 will fade away...

    Time will tell...


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: he.net certified sage (2:280/5555)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Tony Langdon on Wed Aug 9 11:25:21 2017
    Hello Tony,

    On Wednesday August 09 2017 08:52, you wrote to Andrew Leary:

    It's not especially surprising to see such services appearing.

    Indeed, and also good to see they have an IPv6 DDNS service too.

    I haven't looked into their DDNS service, but I may have a closer look one of these days. My IPv6 prefix is dynamic, but it has only changed once in the now eight month that I have my present CPE. That change was caused by an unscheduled power outage. If it only happens once or twice a year, it is no big deal to update manually. OTOH it may happen at a very inconvenient time...


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: he.net certified sage (2:280/5555)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Tony Langdon on Wed Aug 9 11:29:51 2017
    Hello Tony,

    On Wednesday August 09 2017 08:53, you wrote to me:

    Indeed, it was to be expected. This portmapper of theirs is real
    easy to configure. Much easier than setting up a VPN or a fully
    fledged tunnel. I think it is a good solution if you only need
    one or a few ports.

    Like for running a binkp server...

    Biggest issue is their key configuration page are only in German. :(

    No problem for me. ;-)



    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: he.net certified sage (2:280/5555)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Wilfred van Velzen on Wed Aug 9 19:41:00 2017
    Wilfred van Velzen wrote to Tony Langdon <=-

    Sounds a bit like my ISP - geek friendly, has a strong positive reputation among geeks (which is why I chose them), definitely not the cheapest - a little more expensive than most others, but definitely worth the premium. :)

    Exactly the same here... ;)


    Yeah, thought it sounded similar. :)


    ... Peter Piper picked 8.810 liters of pickled peppers.
    --- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49
    * Origin: Freeway BBS - freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Wilfred van Velzen on Wed Aug 9 19:42:00 2017
    Wilfred van Velzen wrote to Tony Langdon <=-

    But I think apana.org is the one you mentioned... ;)

    My origin line should give it away - apana.org.au.


    ... The brain is as strong as its weakest think.
    --- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49
    * Origin: Freeway BBS - freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)
  • From Wilfred van Velzen@2:280/464 to Tony Langdon on Wed Aug 9 12:01:21 2017
    Hi Tony,

    On 2017-08-09 19:42:00, you wrote to me:

    But I think apana.org is the one you mentioned... ;)

    My origin line should give it away - apana.org.au.

    Didn't notice that. ;)

    (It's the same page as apana.org)

    Bye, Wilfred.

    --- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.17-B20170711
    * Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)
  • From Markus Reschke@2:240/1661 to Tony Langdon on Wed Aug 9 12:03:00 2017
    Hi Tony!

    Aug 09 08:24 2017, Tony Langdon wrote to Wilfred van Velzen:

    @TZUTC: 1000
    @MSGID: 3202.fido-ipv6@3:633/410 1defae1b
    @REPLY: 2:280/464 5989aa66
    @TID: SBBSecho 2.27-Linux r1.261 Dec 26 2015 GCC 4.8.2
    Wilfred van Velzen wrote to Michiel van der Vlist <=-

    Then they will fold up the business all together, or sell it to
    someone else. It's still an independent "daughter".

    Your ISP sounds a lot like mine - now owned by a much larger company,
    but maintain their independent operating.

    That might be the better way anyway. The daughter ISP is more flexible and can offer services which Ma ISP can't, acting like a special business unit for customized solutions. Usually Ma carrier assimilates the small ISP completely, migrates customers to standard platforms and so on. I've experienced that first hand.

    ciao,
    Markus

    ---
    * Origin: *** theca tabellaria *** (2:240/1661)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Michiel van der Vlist on Wed Aug 9 19:55:00 2017
    Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Tony Langdon <=-

    Five years is a long time in a rapidly changing world. I am stll optimistic. I still hope that it will take less than five years before
    we reach the tipping point when IPv6 will be the dominant protocol and IPv4 will fade away...

    Well, nothing's really changed at the retail level here in the past several years, and I haven't seen any signs of change from other ISPs, so 5 years seems like will pass in the blink of an eye. Hope I'm wrong, but I don't like my chances.


    ... Do you ever see inconsistencies in your world?
    --- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49
    * Origin: Freeway BBS - freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Michiel van der Vlist on Wed Aug 9 20:04:00 2017
    Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Tony Langdon <=-

    I haven't looked into their DDNS service, but I may have a closer look one of these days. My IPv6 prefix is dynamic, but it has only changed once in the now eight month that I have my present CPE. That change was caused by an unscheduled power outage. If it only happens once or twice
    a year, it is no big deal to update manually. OTOH it may happen at a very inconvenient time...

    You would have to run the IPv6 version of the script on the device you want to register in DDNS, but it should work fine. I did some brief testing of DDNS on my router. One thing I notice is I can't register a v4 and v6 address at the same time. I might try running the v6 version on another host and see if both can be registered at the same time.


    ... A day without sunshine is like night.
    --- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49
    * Origin: Freeway BBS - freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Michiel van der Vlist on Wed Aug 9 20:05:00 2017
    Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Tony Langdon <=-

    Biggest issue is their key configuration page are only in German. :(

    No problem for me. ;-)

    LOL figured that. ;)


    ... TagLine support contract for renewal. Ignore this if you've already paid. --- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49
    * Origin: Freeway BBS - freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Wilfred van Velzen on Wed Aug 9 21:50:00 2017
    Wilfred van Velzen wrote to Tony Langdon <=-

    But I think apana.org is the one you mentioned... ;)

    My origin line should give it away - apana.org.au.

    Didn't notice that. ;)

    (It's the same page as apana.org)

    Oh, OK. :)


    ... Life is a hereditary disease.
    --- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49
    * Origin: Freeway BBS - freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Markus Reschke on Wed Aug 9 21:52:00 2017
    Markus Reschke wrote to Tony Langdon <=-

    That might be the better way anyway. The daughter ISP is more flexible
    and can offer services which Ma ISP can't, acting like a special
    business unit for customized solutions. Usually Ma carrier assimilates
    the small ISP completely, migrates customers to standard platforms and
    so on. I've experienced that first hand.

    Yeah, I remember when they announced the first takeover, they made sure they could conduct business as usual.


    ... A great deal of money is never enough once you have it.
    --- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49
    * Origin: Freeway BBS - freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)
  • From Andrew Leary@1:320/219 to Tony Langdon on Wed Aug 9 08:36:11 2017
    Hello Tony!

    09 Aug 17 20:04, you wrote to Michiel van der Vlist:

    You would have to run the IPv6 version of the script on the device you want to register in DDNS, but it should work fine. I did some brief testing of DDNS on my router. One thing I notice is I can't register a
    v4 and v6 address at the same time. I might try running the v6
    version on another host and see if both can be registered at the same time.

    My Netgear WNDR3700 running OpenWRT seems to suffer from that as well. It's not a big deal; I just need to let the router do IPv4 and run a client on my Linux BBS box to handle IPv6.

    Andrew

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: Phoenix BBS * phoenix.bnbbbs.net (1:320/219)
  • From Markus Reschke@2:240/1661 to Andrew Leary on Wed Aug 9 14:47:42 2017
    Hi Andrew!

    Aug 09 08:36 2017, Andrew Leary wrote to Tony Langdon:

    You would have to run the IPv6 version of the script on the device
    you want to register in DDNS, but it should work fine. I did some
    brief testing of DDNS on my router. One thing I notice is I can't
    register a v4 and v6 address at the same time. I might try running
    the v6 version on another host and see if both can be registered at
    the same time.

    My Netgear WNDR3700 running OpenWRT seems to suffer from that as
    well. It's not a big deal; I just need to let the router do IPv4 and
    run a client on my Linux BBS box to handle IPv6.

    Does the DDNS client send the public IP address to the server, or does the DDNS server determine the address via the connection from the client? In the latter case you would need one update for IPv4 and another for IPv6.

    ciao,
    Markus

    ---
    * Origin: *** theca tabellaria *** (2:240/1661)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Tony Langdon on Thu Aug 10 00:55:15 2017
    Hello Tony,

    On Wednesday August 09 2017 19:55, you wrote to me:

    Well, nothing's really changed at the retail level here in the past several years, and I haven't seen any signs of change from other ISPs,
    so 5 years seems like will pass in the blink of an eye. Hope I'm
    wrong, but I don't like my chances.

    How does IPv6 penetration of the WWW look from your POV in your neck of the woods? When I urf the web the majority of sites that I visit is reachable via IPv6. So from my POV IPv6 already is dominant on the WWW. How about you?


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: he.net certified sage (2:280/5555)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Tony Langdon on Thu Aug 10 01:08:43 2017
    Hello Tony,

    On Wednesday August 09 2017 20:04, you wrote to me:

    You would have to run the IPv6 version of the script on the device you want to register in DDNS, but it should work fine.

    In what seems to be a previous life, I had such a script running on my win95 machine to update my IPv4 DNS with EuroDNS. I dropped it when I pensioned that win95 machine because my IPv4 address only changed when the MAC address of the CPE changed. i.e. never unless I changed hardware.

    For IPv6 I need a bit more than just changing one address. What I need is to change the prefix of ALL addresses of devices reachable from outside.

    I did some brief testing of DDNS on my router. One thing I notice is I can't register a v4 and v6 address at the same time. I might try
    running the v6 version on another host and see if both can be
    registered at the same time.

    Hmmm... I may run into the same problem...


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: he.net certified sage (2:280/5555)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Andrew Leary on Thu Aug 10 07:24:00 2017
    Andrew Leary wrote to Tony Langdon <=-

    My Netgear WNDR3700 running OpenWRT seems to suffer from that as well. It's not a big deal; I just need to let the router do IPv4 and run a client on my Linux BBS box to handle IPv6.

    Yeah, that seems to be the way to go. The "client" looks like it would be nothing more than wget or curl. :)


    ... Failure is the path of least persistance.
    --- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49
    * Origin: Freeway BBS - freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Markus Reschke on Thu Aug 10 08:20:00 2017
    Markus Reschke wrote to Andrew Leary <=-

    Does the DDNS client send the public IP address to the server, or does
    the DDNS server determine the address via the connection from the
    client? In the latter case you would need one update for IPv4 and
    another for IPv6.

    In testing, the DDNS client sends the WAN IP of the relevant protocol to the server. For IPv4 (or dual stack), this is quite useful, since that's connections terminate for IPv4. For IPv6, that's less useful, because often you want to give the hostname to something _behind_ the router, which has a different IPv6 address.


    ... JUVENILE COURT TO TRY SHOOTING DEFENDANT.
    --- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49
    * Origin: Freeway BBS - freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)
  • From Ingo Juergensmann@2:2452/413 to Michiel van der Vlist on Thu Aug 10 06:43:58 2017
    Hello Michiel!

    10 Aug 17 01:08, you wrote to Tony Langdon:

    For IPv6 I need a bit more than just changing one address. What I need
    is to change the prefix of ALL addresses of devices reachable from outside.

    You mean Mobile IPv6? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_IP

    Ingo


    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5--b20170303
    * Origin: AmigaXess - back in FidoNet after 17 years (2:2452/413)
  • From Markus Reschke@2:240/1661 to Michiel van der Vlist on Thu Aug 10 08:39:08 2017
    Hi Michiel!

    Aug 10 01:08 2017, Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Tony Langdon:

    MvdV> For IPv6 I need a bit more than just changing one address. What I
    MvdV> need is to change the prefix of ALL addresses of devices reachable
    MvdV> from outside.

    Quite simple, bind and a script which figures out the prefix and runs nsupdate to update all your AAAAs. For an extra layer of security wrap that in ssh, i.e. put the script on the server.

    ciao,
    Markus

    ---
    * Origin: *** theca tabellaria *** (2:240/1661)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Ingo Juergensmann on Thu Aug 10 12:13:35 2017
    Hello Ingo,

    On Thursday August 10 2017 06:43, you wrote to me:

    For IPv6 I need a bit more than just changing one address. What I
    need is to change the prefix of ALL addresses of devices
    reachable from outside.

    You mean Mobile IPv6? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_IP

    No. What I meant was this:

    My fido machine has host name fido.vlist.eu and IPv6 address 2001:1c02:1100:d700:f1d0:2:280:5555

    My RIPE ATLAS probe hast host name atlas.vlist.eu and IPv6 address 2001:1c02:1100:d700:6666:b3ff:fec4:fef8

    I can run a script on my fido machine to use a DDNS service to update the AAAA record when it changes. But I can not run such a script on my atlas probe. I have a /56. So I need to update the first 56 bits of that AAAA record and let the last 72 bits unchanged.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: he.net certified sage (2:280/5555)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Markus Reschke on Thu Aug 10 12:19:46 2017
    Hello Markus,

    On Thursday August 10 2017 08:39, you wrote to me:

    MvdV>> For IPv6 I need a bit more than just changing one address. What
    MvdV>> I need is to change the prefix of ALL addresses of devices
    MvdV>> reachable from outside.

    Quite simple, bind and a script which figures out the prefix and runs nsupdate to update all your AAAAs. For an extra layer of security wrap that in ssh, i.e. put the script on the server.

    Yes, something like that. I have a script from someone as a guideline. It is for Linux. It is not high on my list of priorities. If it only changes one or two times a year and it will be for five years, then I ony have to manually intervene five to ten times. Writing and debugging a script takes much longer...


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: he.net certified sage (2:280/5555)
  • From Wilfred van Velzen@2:280/464 to Michiel van der Vlist on Thu Aug 10 13:09:41 2017
    Hi Michiel,

    On 2017-08-10 12:19:46, you wrote to Markus Reschke:

    MvdV> Yes, something like that. I have a script from someone as a
    MvdV> guideline. It is for Linux. It is not high on my list of priorities.
    MvdV> If it only changes one or two times a year and it will be for five
    MvdV> years, then I ony have to manually intervene five to ten times.
    MvdV> Writing and debugging a script takes much longer...

    "where is that pioneer spirit" ? ;-)

    Bye, Wilfred.

    --- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.17-B20170711
    * Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Wilfred van Velzen on Thu Aug 10 13:11:46 2017
    Hello Wilfred,

    On Thursday August 10 2017 13:09, you wrote to me:

    MvdV>> Yes, something like that. I have a script from someone as a
    MvdV>> guideline. It is for Linux. It is not high on my list of
    MvdV>> priorities. If it only changes one or two times a year and it
    MvdV>> will be for five years, then I ony have to manually intervene
    MvdV>> five to ten times. Writing and debugging a script takes much
    MvdV>> longer...

    "where is that pioneer spirit" ? ;-)

    Even pioneers have to set priorities. ;-)


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: he.net certified sage (2:280/5555)
  • From Markus Reschke@2:240/1661 to Michiel van der Vlist on Thu Aug 10 13:35:58 2017
    Hi Michiel!

    Aug 10 12:19 2017, Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Markus Reschke:

    MvdV> Yes, something like that. I have a script from someone as a
    MvdV> guideline. It is for Linux. It is not high on my list of
    MvdV> priorities. If it only changes one or two times a year and it will
    MvdV> be for five years, then I ony have to manually intervene five to
    MvdV> ten times. Writing and debugging a script takes much longer...

    If you're using a some public DDNS service have the script run wget for each AAAA.

    ciao,
    Markus

    ---
    * Origin: *** theca tabellaria *** (2:240/1661)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Michiel van der Vlist on Thu Aug 10 20:09:00 2017
    Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Tony Langdon <=-

    How does IPv6 penetration of the WWW look from your POV in your neck of the woods? When I urf the web the majority of sites that I visit is reachable via IPv6. So from my POV IPv6 already is dominant on the WWW. How about you?

    There are a lot of IPv6 reachable websites for me too, even some Australian government ones. But a lot of IPv4 only ones too, maybe around 50-50, if I was to take a stab in the dark.


    ... We are the very model of cartoon individuals.
    --- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49
    * Origin: Freeway BBS - freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Michiel van der Vlist on Thu Aug 10 20:12:00 2017
    Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Tony Langdon <=-

    In what seems to be a previous life, I had such a script running on my win95 machine to update my IPv4 DNS with EuroDNS. I dropped it when I pensioned that win95 machine because my IPv4 address only changed when the MAC address of the CPE changed. i.e. never unless I changed
    hardware.

    Fair enough. :)

    For IPv6 I need a bit more than just changing one address. What I need
    is to change the prefix of ALL addresses of devices reachable from outside.

    Only way I see to handle this is to have the script run on each device, or alternatively, run it multiple times on one device (with different host IDs for each device), whenever the prefix changes.


    ... Before you find your handsome prince, you've got to kiss a lot of frogs. --- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49
    * Origin: Freeway BBS - freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)
  • From Andrew Leary@1:320/219 to Tony Langdon on Thu Aug 10 11:15:42 2017
    Hello Tony!

    10 Aug 17 07:24, you wrote to me:

    My Netgear WNDR3700 running OpenWRT seems to suffer from that as
    well. It's not a big deal; I just need to let the router do IPv4
    and run a client on my Linux BBS box to handle IPv6.

    Yeah, that seems to be the way to go. The "client" looks like it
    would be nothing more than wget or curl. :)

    Exactly.

    Andrew

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: Phoenix BBS * phoenix.bnbbbs.net (1:320/219)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Tony Langdon on Fri Aug 11 14:12:44 2017
    Hello Tony,

    On Thursday August 10 2017 07:24, you wrote to Andrew Leary:

    My Netgear WNDR3700 running OpenWRT seems to suffer from that as
    well. It's not a big deal; I just need to let the router do IPv4
    and run a client on my Linux BBS box to handle IPv6.

    Yeah, that seems to be the way to go. The "client" looks like it
    would be nothing more than wget or curl. :)

    wget and curl is Linux speak. Not much use for running the script on a Windows system.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: he.net certified sage (2:280/5555)
  • From Tommi Koivula@2:221/6 to Michiel van der Vlist on Fri Aug 11 22:04:12 2017
    "Michiel van der Vlist : Tony Langdon" <unknown> wrote:

    wget and curl is Linux speak. Not much use for running the script on a Windows system.

    Bullshit.

    ver

    Microsoft Windows [Version 6.1.7601]

    curl
    curl: try 'curl --help' or 'curl --manual' for more information

    wget
    wget: missing URL
    Usage: wget [OPTION]... [URL]...

    Try `wget --help' for more options.



    'Tommi

    ---
    * Origin: *** nntp://fidonews.mine.nu *** Finland *** (2:221/6.0)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Tommi Koivula on Fri Aug 11 22:08:32 2017
    Hello Tommi,

    On Friday August 11 2017 22:04, you wrote to me:

    curl
    curl: try 'curl --help' or 'curl --manual' for more information

    wget
    wget: missing URL
    Usage: wget [OPTION]... [URL]...

    Try `wget --help' for more options.

    You have a differebt version og windows that I have:

    D:\FIDO\logs>curl
    Der Befehl "curl" ist entweder falsch geschrieben oder
    konnte nicht gefunden werden.

    D:\FIDO\logs>wget
    Der Befehl "wget" ist entweder falsch geschrieben oder
    konnte nicht gefunden werden.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: he.net certified sage (2:280/5555)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Michiel van der Vlist on Sat Aug 12 07:48:00 2017
    Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Tony Langdon <=-

    wget and curl is Linux speak. Not much use for running the script on a Windows system.

    I'm pretty sure you can get wget for Windows with a little Googling. :)


    ... My Brain has too many tabs open...
    --- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49
    * Origin: Freeway BBS - freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Tommi Koivula on Sat Aug 12 08:36:00 2017
    Tommi Koivula wrote to Michiel van der Vlist <=-

    ver

    Microsoft Windows [Version 6.1.7601]

    curl
    curl: try 'curl --help' or 'curl --manual' for more information

    wget
    wget: missing URL
    Usage: wget [OPTION]... [URL]...

    Try `wget --help' for more options.



    As I suspected. I'm sure I've used wget on Windows before, and a heap of other utilities normally associated with Linux/Unix. Google will track the Windows versions down. :)


    ... I know the voices aren't real but they have good ideas.
    --- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49
    * Origin: Freeway BBS - freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Michiel van der Vlist on Sat Aug 12 06:53:09 2017
    D:\FIDO\logs>> curl
    MvdV> Der Befehl "curl" ist entweder falsch geschrieben oder
    MvdV> konnte nicht gefunden werden.

    D:\FIDO\logs>> wget
    MvdV> Der Befehl "wget" ist entweder falsch geschrieben oder
    MvdV> konnte nicht gefunden werden.

    Microsoft Windows XP [Version 5.1.2600]
    (C) Copyright 1985-2001 Microsoft Corp.

    binkd
    'binkd' is not recognized as an internal or external command,
    operable program or batch file.





    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Tommi Koivula@2:221/1.1 to Michiel van der Vlist on Sat Aug 12 08:57:46 2017

    curl
    curl: try 'curl --help' or 'curl --manual' for more information

    wget
    wget: missing URL
    Usage: wget [OPTION]... [URL]...

    Try `wget --help' for more options.

    You have a differebt version og windows that I have:

    I didn't say those are bundled with windows. Neither is GoldED. ;D

    'Tommi

    ... he.net certified sage
    ---
    * Origin: IPv6 Point at [2001:470:1f15:cb0:2:221:1:1] (2:221/1.1)
  • From Tommi Koivula@2:221/1.1 to Bj÷rn Felten on Sat Aug 12 08:58:34 2017

    binkd

    'binkd' is not recognized as an internal or external command,
    operable program or batch file.

    Exactly! :)

    'Tommi

    ... he.net certified sage
    ---
    * Origin: IPv6 Point at [2001:470:1f15:cb0:2:221:1:1] (2:221/1.1)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Tommi Koivula on Sat Aug 12 18:19:30 2017
    Hello Tommi,

    On Saturday August 12 2017 08:57, you wrote to me:

    Try `wget --help' for more options.

    You have a different version of windows that I have:

    I didn't say those are bundled with windows. Neither is GoldED. ;D

    No, you did not say that it was not a standard Windows utility either that I had to find and install first, but the way that it was presented suggested that all I had to do was to type "wget -help".


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: he.net certified sage (2:280/5555)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Tony Langdon on Sat Aug 12 18:22:41 2017
    Hello Tony,

    On Saturday August 12 2017 07:48, you wrote to me:

    wget and curl is Linux speak. Not much use for running the
    script on a Windows system.

    I'm pretty sure you can get wget for Windows with a little Googling.
    :)

    Probably... But I am always a bit reluctant with downloading executables from the InterNet. Expecially when they come from vague sources...


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: he.net certified sage (2:280/5555)
  • From Tommi Koivula@2:221/1.100 to Michiel van der Vlist on Sat Aug 12 20:43:55 2017
    Hello, Michiel van der Vlist.
    On 12/08/2017 18:22 you wrote:

    Hello Tony, On Saturday August 12 2017 07:48, you wrote to me:
    wget and curl is Linux speak. Not much use for running the
    script on a Windows system.
    I'm pretty sure you can get wget for Windows with a little
    Googling. :)
    Probably... But I am always a bit reluctant with downloading
    executables from the InterNet. Expecially when they come from
    vague sources...

    ... Says a guy who run windows as a server in internet. ;) ;)

    --
    'Tommi
    --- Hotdoged/2.13.5/Android
    * Origin: native ipv6 point (2:221/1.100)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Michiel van der Vlist on Sat Aug 12 20:12:55 2017
    MvdV> Probably... But I am always a bit reluctant with downloading executables
    MvdV> from the InterNet. Expecially when they come from vague sources...

    If you don't mind the hazzle (wget and curl are very easy to work with) there is PowerShell, which IS a Windows component. It has both wget and curl. At least it had, I heard rumours about them being removed as of version 7.0, dunno if that's so.





    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Markus Reschke@2:240/1661 to Michiel van der Vlist on Sat Aug 12 22:13:12 2017
    Hi Michiel!

    Aug 12 18:22 2017, Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Tony Langdon:

    MvdV> Probably... But I am always a bit reluctant with downloading
    MvdV> executables from the InterNet. Expecially when they come from vague
    MvdV> sources...

    https://www.regfish.de/domains/dyndns/software

    BTW, all domains registered via them include DDNS for IPv4 and IPv6.

    ciao,
    Markus

    ---
    * Origin: *** theca tabellaria *** (2:240/1661)
  • From Ingo Juergensmann@2:2452/413 to Markus Reschke on Sat Aug 12 22:55:30 2017
    Hello Markus!

    12 Aug 17 22:13, you wrote to Michiel van der Vlist:

    Aug 12 18:22 2017, Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Tony Langdon:
    MvdV>> Probably... But I am always a bit reluctant with downloading
    MvdV>> executables from the InterNet. Expecially when they come from
    MvdV>> vague sources...
    https://www.regfish.de/domains/dyndns/software
    BTW, all domains registered via them include DDNS for IPv4 and IPv6.

    Well, not really surprising. If you have a script to update your DNS for IPv4, it's easy to add IPv6 support as well. When DynDns made their service unattractive, I started my own DNS service (and named it that way ;)), wrote a small script and was done with it within an afternoon.
    Instead of using http-based updates, direct updates via nsupdate and rndc keys are more secure, but not that common for embedded devices that are usually offering the http variant via their webinterface.

    Ingo


    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5--b20170303
    * Origin: AmigaXess - back in FidoNet after 17 years (2:2452/413)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Michiel van der Vlist on Sun Aug 13 07:58:00 2017
    Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Tony Langdon <=-

    Probably... But I am always a bit reluctant with downloading
    executables from the InterNet. Expecially when they come from vague sources...

    Probably find something in places like Sourceforge or Github, where you can examine the source code for yourself. :)


    ... Copper wire was invented by two Ferengi fighting over a penny.
    --- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49
    * Origin: Freeway BBS - freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Tommi Koivula on Sun Aug 13 08:09:00 2017
    Tommi Koivula wrote to Michiel van der Vlist <=-

    ... Says a guy who run windows as a server in internet. ;) ;)

    Haha, good point, though you can lock Windows down. However, I don't like Windows as a server for other practical reasons - resources, management, etc. Give me a *NIX box anyday. :) I'll keep Windows for the desktop. :)


    ... Borg Burgers: We do it our way; your way is irrelevant.
    --- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49
    * Origin: Freeway BBS - freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)
  • From Richard Menedetter@2:310/31 to Michiel van der Vlist on Sun Aug 13 11:05:12 2017
    Hi Michiel!

    12 Aug 2017 18:22, from Michiel van der Vlist -> Tony Langdon:

    wget and curl is Linux speak. Not much use for running the
    script on a Windows system.
    I'm pretty sure you can get wget for Windows with a little
    Googling.
    :)
    Probably... But I am always a bit reluctant with downloading
    executables from the InterNet. Expecially when they come from vague sources...

    So do not download from vague sources.
    There are plenty of non vague sources ;)
    Or you can get also the source from the sources and compile yourself.
    (Sadly Windows does not come with any compilers by default, another reason not to use it).

    BTW you are very courageous anyhow by putting a Windows box on the Internet.

    CU, Ricsi

    --- GoldED+/LNX
    * Origin: I refuse a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. (2:310/31)
  • From Richard Menedetter@2:310/31 to Bj÷rn Felten on Sun Aug 13 11:08:10 2017
    Hi Bjrn!

    12 Aug 2017 20:12, from Bjrn Felten -> Michiel van der Vlist:

    MvdV>> Probably... But I am always a bit reluctant with downloading
    MvdV>> executables from the InterNet. Expecially when they come from
    MvdV>> vague sources...
    If you don't mind the hazzle (wget and curl are very easy to work
    with) there is PowerShell, which IS a Windows component. It has both
    wget and curl. At least it had, I heard rumours about them being
    removed as of version 7.0, dunno if that's so.

    Or use the Linux Subsystem from Microsoft.

    Then you only need to swap out the NT Kernel to a Linux kernel and you are good ;)

    CU, Ricsi

    --- GoldED+/LNX
    * Origin: Think! While it's still legal! (2:310/31)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Richard Menedetter on Sun Aug 13 14:19:01 2017
    Hello Richard,

    On Sunday August 13 2017 11:05, you wrote to me:

    Probably... But I am always a bit reluctant with downloading
    executables from the InterNet. Expecially when they come from
    vague sources...

    So do not download from vague sources.

    I don't.

    BTW you are very courageous anyhow by putting a Windows box on the Internet.

    I think the idea that "the other OS" is less prone to attacks is a myth. But I do not wish to start an OS war here.

    Regarding automatic updating of dynamic IPv6 adresses, I think I will use the API interface of Trans-IP. I have the PHP script of someone who got it working.

    When I get a round tuit...


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: he.net certified sage (2:280/5555)
  • From Joe Delahaye@1:249/303 to Richard Menedetter on Sun Aug 13 10:02:51 2017
    Re: DS-Lite
    By: Richard Menedetter to Michiel van der Vlist on Sun Aug 13 2017 11:05:12

    So do not download from vague sources.
    There are plenty of non vague sources ;)
    Or you can get also the source from the sources and compile yourself. (Sadly Windows does not come with any compilers by default, another reason not to use it).

    BTW you are very courageous anyhow by putting a Windows box on the Internet.

    Why? As long as you properly firewal it, etc, there should be no problem. Besides, most attempted intrusions here are using NIX commands, or looking for NIX directories, which of course do not exist. I did see at least one attmept to get into my router, which did not succeed.


    Joe
    --- SBBSecho 3.00-Win32
    * Origin: The Lions Den BBS, Trenton, On, CDN (1:249/303)
  • From Markus Reschke@2:240/1661 to Ingo Juergensmann on Sun Aug 13 15:55:10 2017
    Hi Ingo!

    Aug 12 22:55 2017, Ingo Juergensmann wrote to Markus Reschke:

    Instead of using http-based updates, direct updates via nsupdate and
    rndc keys are more secure, but not that common for embedded devices
    that are usually offering the http variant via their webinterface.

    You can also place the nsupdate script on the nameserver and use ssh which provides the remote IP address via a shell variable. Tie the script to a ssh pub-key and you'll have a pretty nifty and secure DDNS updater.

    ciao,
    Markus

    ---
    * Origin: *** theca tabellaria *** (2:240/1661)
  • From Ingo Juergensmann@2:2452/413 to Markus Reschke on Sun Aug 13 17:26:14 2017
    Hello Markus!

    13 Aug 17 15:55, you wrote to me:

    Instead of using http-based updates, direct updates via nsupdate
    and rndc keys are more secure, but not that common for embedded
    devices that are usually offering the http variant via their
    webinterface.
    You can also place the nsupdate script on the nameserver and use ssh
    which provides the remote IP address via a shell variable. Tie the
    script to a ssh pub-key and you'll have a pretty nifty and secure DDNS updater.

    Sure, but as already stated: usually the off-the-shelf DSL/cable router usually only offer some web based services, i.e. you can configure an URL via that a remote can update the RR entries in that zone.

    However, if you want to handle the whole stuff behind the DSL/cable router, you'll have more possibilities, as you said, for example SSH. Or you can root your DSL/cable router as well, of course.

    There are a plenty of possibilities. Point is: it's not difficult! The only requirement you need is to have control over your desired domain so that you can do nsupdates.

    Ingo


    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5--b20170303
    * Origin: AmigaXess - back in FidoNet after 17 years (2:2452/413)
  • From Alexey Vissarionov@2:5020/545 to Joe Delahaye on Mon Aug 14 09:17:00 2017
    Good ${greeting_time}, Joe!

    13 Aug 2017 10:02:50, you wrote to Richard Menedetter:

    BTW you are very courageous anyhow by putting a Windows box on the
    Internet.
    Why? As long as you properly firewal it, etc, there should be no
    problem.

    When you have to "properly firewall" something, you're very likely going some wrong way.

    Besides, most attempted intrusions here are using NIX commands,
    or looking for NIX directories, which of course do not exist.

    I guess you mean attempts of command injection through HTTP requests. If so, your observations show the popularity of GNU/Linux-based systems amongst the internet servers, and nothing else.

    AOT: regargless of network level protocols used to access them.

    I did see at least one attmept to get into my router, which did
    not succeed.

    Just don't let it get connections from outside (except SSH for management). Removing unnecessary services would be a good start.


    --
    Alexey V. Vissarionov aka Gremlin from Kremlin
    gremlin.ru!gremlin; +vii-cmiii-cmlxxvii-mmxlviii

    ... that's why I really dislike fools.
    --- /bin/vi
    * Origin: http://openwall.com/Owl (2:5020/545)
  • From Joe Delahaye@1:249/303 to Alexey Vissarionov on Mon Aug 14 21:37:42 2017
    Re: DS-Lite
    By: Alexey Vissarionov to Joe Delahaye on Mon Aug 14 2017 09:17:00

    Why? As long as you properly firewal it, etc, there should be no
    problem.

    When you have to "properly firewall" something, you're very likely going some wrong way.

    Besides, most attempted intrusions here are using NIX commands,
    or looking for NIX directories, which of course do not exist.

    I guess you mean attempts of command injection through HTTP requests. If so, your observations show the popularity of GNU/Linux-based systems amongst the internet servers, and nothing else.

    A lot of script kiddies apparently, using FRP, Telnet, and yes even the web based portion of the BBS.


    AOT: regargless of network level protocols used to access them.

    I did see at least one attmept to get into my router, which did
    not succeed.

    Just don't let it get connections from outside (except SSH for management). Removing unnecessary services would be a good start.

    I have external management turned off, and no guest services.


    Joe
    --- SBBSecho 3.00-Win32
    * Origin: The Lions Den BBS, Trenton, On, CDN (1:249/303)
  • From Torsten Bamberg@2:240/5832 to Tommi Koivula on Fri Sep 8 18:42:23 2017
    Hallo Tommi!

    08.08.2017 20:19, Tommi Koivula schrieb an Wilfred van Velzen:

    My 2:221/10 is a splitted node. The binkp server runs in VPS and it
    passes the mail bundles to my os/2 system to be processed. ;)
    How have you done this?

    My OS/2 (Ecomstation 2.2) has no ipv6 stack. So binkd isn't able to answer on my native ipv6 connection.

    --
    Tommi
    Bye/2 Torsten

    ... MAILBOX: Up 27d 19h 23m (BTUp2V1.5)
    --- GoldED+ 1.1.5-17
    * Origin: DatenBahn BBS Hamburg (2:240/5832)
  • From Alexandr Kruglikov@2:5053/58.1 to Torsten Bamberg on Fri Sep 8 23:46:12 2017
    Good ${greeting_time}, Torsten!

    08 Sep 17 18:42, you wrote to Tommi Koivula:

    My 2:221/10 is a splitted node. The binkp server runs in VPS and
    it passes the mail bundles to my os/2 system to be processed. ;)
    How have you done this?
    My OS/2 (Ecomstation 2.2) has no ipv6 stack. So binkd isn't able to
    answer on my native ipv6 connection.

    Maybe sshfs or nfs used?

    With best regards, Alexandr.

    --- "OS X/binkd/hpt-1.9-cur/GoldEd+-1.1.5-b20170303" ---
    * Origin: 24 hours in a day, 24 beers in a case, Hmmm... (2:5053/58.1)
  • From Torsten Bamberg@2:240/5832 to Alexandr Kruglikov on Fri Sep 8 22:49:45 2017
    Hallo Alexandr!

    08.09.2017 23:46, Alexandr Kruglikov schrieb an Torsten Bamberg:

    My 2:221/10 is a splitted node. The binkp server runs in VPS and
    it passes the mail bundles to my os/2 system to be processed. ;)
    How have you done this?
    My OS/2 (Ecomstation 2.2) has no ipv6 stack. So binkd isn't able
    to answer on my native ipv6 connection.
    Maybe sshfs or nfs used?
    Well, I'm sure, something like that he is using to move the binkp pakets.

    But it's more interesting, how Tommi connected a VPS on his OS/2 Machine with IPv6.


    With best regards, Alexandr.
    Bye/2 Torsten

    ... MAILBOX: Up 27d 22h 57m (BTUp2V1.5)
    --- GoldED+ 1.1.5-17
    * Origin: DatenBahn BBS Hamburg (2:240/5832)
  • From Tommi Koivula@2:221/1.1 to Torsten Bamberg on Sat Sep 9 08:42:38 2017

    Hallo Torsten.

    08 Sep 17 18:42:22, you wrote to me:

    08.08.2017 20:19, Tommi Koivula schrieb an Wilfred van Velzen:

    My 2:221/10 is a splitted node. The binkp server runs in VPS and it
    passes the mail bundles to my os/2 system to be processed. ;)

    How have you done this?

    The binkd (linux) mailer runs at VPS, but there is no mail processing at all. Simply all incoming files are transferred to my main OS/2 system. By binkd of course. This connection is by ipv4. :)

    My OS/2 (Ecomstation 2.2) has no ipv6 stack. So binkd isn't able to
    answer on my native ipv6 connection.

    Another way to make binkd/2 to answer ipv6 calls is used in my linux router. There xinetd is forwarding wan ipv6 port 24554 to lan ipv4 port 24554.

    This way is in use with 2:221/0.

    Bye/2 Torsten

    'Tommi

    ... he.net certified sage
    ---
    * Origin: IPv6 Point at [2001:470:1f15:cb0:2:221:1:1] (2:221/1.1)
  • From Tommi Koivula@2:221/1.1 to Alexandr Kruglikov on Sat Sep 9 08:43:38 2017
    Hi Alexandr.

    08 Sep 17 23:46:12, you wrote to Torsten Bamberg:

    My 2:221/10 is a splitted node. The binkp server runs in VPS and
    it passes the mail bundles to my os/2 system to be processed. ;)
    How have you done this?
    My OS/2 (Ecomstation 2.2) has no ipv6 stack. So binkd isn't able to
    answer on my native ipv6 connection.

    Maybe sshfs or nfs used?

    Or ftp or google drive. :D See my reply to Torsten.

    In fact ftp would be a good choice, because I run Xenia mailer in my OS/2 system, and Xenia supports mail transfer by ftp.

    'Tommi

    ... he.net certified sage
    ---
    * Origin: IPv6 Point at [2001:470:1f15:cb0:2:221:1:1] (2:221/1.1)
  • From Alexandr Kruglikov@2:5053/58.1 to Tommi Koivula on Sat Sep 9 10:26:54 2017
    Good ${greeting_time}, Tommi!

    *** Answering a msg posted in area CarbonArea ( ).

    09 Sep 17 08:43, you wrote to me:

    How have you done this?
    My OS/2 (Ecomstation 2.2) has no ipv6 stack. So binkd isn't able
    to answer on my native ipv6 connection.
    Maybe sshfs or nfs used?
    Or ftp or google drive. :D See my reply to Torsten.

    Excellent!
    I thus made a dial-up to the VDS =)

    With best regards, Alexandr.

    --- "OS X/binkd/hpt-1.9-cur/GoldEd+-1.1.5-b20170303" ---
    * Origin: 24 hours in a day, 24 beers in a case, Hmmm... (2:5053/58.1)
  • From Alexey Vissarionov@2:5020/545 to Alexandr Kruglikov on Sat Sep 9 12:00:00 2017
    Good ${greeting_time}, Alexandr!

    09 Sep 2017 10:26:54, you wrote to Tommi Koivula:

    How have you done this?
    My OS/2 (Ecomstation 2.2) has no ipv6 stack. So binkd isn't able
    to answer on my native ipv6 connection.
    Maybe sshfs or nfs used?
    Or ftp or google drive. :D See my reply to Torsten.
    Excellent! I thus made a dial-up to the VDS =)

    Not a big deal when you have AS5300 with E1 stream...


    --
    Alexey V. Vissarionov aka Gremlin from Kremlin
    gremlin.ru!gremlin; +vii-cmiii-cmlxxvii-mmxlviii

    ... GPG: 8832FE9FA791F7968AC96E4E909DAC45EF3B1FA8 @ hkp://keys.gnupg.net
    --- /bin/vi
    * Origin: http://openwall.com/Owl (2:5020/545)
  • From Richard Menedetter@2:310/31 to Torsten Bamberg on Sat Sep 9 14:11:12 2017
    Hi Torsten!

    08 Sep 2017 22:49, from Torsten Bamberg -> Alexandr Kruglikov:

    But it's more interesting, how Tommi connected a VPS on his OS/2
    Machine with IPv6.

    Did he??
    I assumed he used BinkD on Linux (IPv6 enabled) and then forwarded the files via IPv4.

    CU, Ricsi

    --- GoldED+/LNX
    * Origin: A good deed is better than the greatest intention. (2:310/31)
  • From Alexandr Kruglikov@2:5053/58.1 to Alexey Vissarionov on Sat Sep 9 16:19:10 2017
    Good ${greeting_time}, Alexey!

    *** Answering a msg posted in area CarbonArea ( ).

    09 Sep 17 12:00, you wrote to me:

    My OS/2 (Ecomstation 2.2) has no ipv6 stack. So binkd isn't
    able to answer on my native ipv6 connection.
    Maybe sshfs or nfs used?
    Or ftp or google drive. :D See my reply to Torsten.
    Excellent! I thus made a dial-up to the VDS =)
    Not a big deal when you have AS5300 with E1 stream...

    I have not yet thought how to have E1 at home =)

    With best regards, Alexandr.

    --- "OS X/binkd/hpt-1.9-cur/GoldEd+-1.1.5-b20170303" ---
    * Origin: 24 hours in a day, 24 beers in a case, Hmmm... (2:5053/58.1)
  • From Markus Reschke@2:240/1661 to Alexandr Kruglikov on Sat Sep 9 16:33:14 2017
    Hi Alexandr!

    Sep 09 16:19 2017, Alexandr Kruglikov wrote to Alexey Vissarionov:

    Not a big deal when you have AS5300 with E1 stream...

    I have not yet thought how to have E1 at home =)

    I think I got a WIC-1T somewhere :)

    ciao,
    Markus

    ---
    * Origin: *** theca tabellaria *** (2:240/1661)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Richard Menedetter on Tue Oct 29 20:45:20 2019
    Hello Richard,

    On Tuesday October 29 2019 20:17, you wrote to Alexey Vissarionov:

    FS... that's dual stack (why lite?), regardless of whether IPv4
    is CGNATed.

    Because usually DS is NOT regardless weather you have a public v4 or
    not. (DS usually means public v4/public v6; DS-Lite if you only have a public v6 address)

    DS-Lite is specified here:
    https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6333
    Dual-Stack Lite Broadband Deployments Following IPv4 Exhaustion

    Another important caracteristic of DS-Lite is that on the IP level, the connection is IPv6 only. IPv4 is tunneled over IPv6.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: he.net certified sage (2:280/5555)